A conversation about conversations about bigotry

[Red Mage Black]

Originally Posted by Nique

Red Mage Black is describing Straw Feminists and while I have no doubt he sincerely believes that what he is saying represents a fair and balanced viewpoint addressing bothsidez of a controversial position, it isn't.

The argument of false rape accusations and the undue attention which he ascribes to it serves as a derailment to the more pressing issue of rape culture.

Rape... culture? I wasn't aware there was a culture centered around rape. I don't usually keep up with societal trends or much of what actually happens, but on the same basis, I don't say it doesn't happen because I don't know. Anything I hear about outside of my area is either on here or elsewhere on the net. So I apologize for that ignorance.

Hear that ladies? Misogyny is over so, know your place.

I know women are by and far usually smaller and weaker than men. I know that a lot of women can also handle themselves. What I was at least trying to say was, "Yes, but you shouldn't act violent and expect me not to at least get mad." That and its felt unfair that I can be arrested if I act, even by restraining, because I'm 'bigger and stronger'.

Ok in all fairness RMB is at least saying that he's willing to look at this from another angle so here; Yes this makes you sound like a chauvinist because these are chauvinist viewpoints in that they ignore or dismiss actual things that are happening to women as a group in favor of drawing attention to isolated or even hypothetical problems that might maybe affect some men.

You see, that's not something I knew. I grew up with 4 sisters and over time, their abuse of the 'you can't touch me because I'm a girl' argument got on my nerves. Which to this day, one of them still does and constantly threatens me with the cops if I retaliate in any manner. I don't actively seek to ignore or dismiss anything. Especially as tragic as rape and I didn't deny it happens. I'm mostly ignorant of any real happenings unless someone actively points them out, which is mostly my fault. As I don't usually pay much attention to anything unless it actually affects my family or myself. To which I guess I should be more aware.

I don't know if am able to construct a sufficient argument for exactly why exactly this is such problematic thinking, but consider some surprising statistics;

Those results really don't surprise me. There are some pretty horrible people out there and it's scary to think that one of those statistics could actually apply to someone you know and possibly see on a daily basis.

[Overcast]

Hey, just to derail this thread real quick, anyone know other places Liz posts her opinions or projects like that SMT LP? I would like to sign up for one of those places if possible because she makes some good creative content I'd hate to miss it because she can't come back.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

She has a site called game pad dojo. The forum there should still be up.

[A Zarkin' Frood]

Gamepad Dojo stopped existing a while ago when she stopped paying the bills for the server. The new place is run by fifth and called sexaypartay. I have my reasons for not being that active there anymore and those reasons might not be what people who are aware of what's going on there probably believe.

[Kyanbu The Legend]

So game pad is now sexay partay? Bummer, I didn't know it went down.

[Nique]

Originally Posted by RMB

Rape... culture? I wasn't aware there was a culture centered around rape. I don't usually keep up with societal trends or much of what actually happens, but on the same basis, I don't say it doesn't happen because I don't know. Anything I hear about outside of my area is either on here or elsewhere on the net. So I apologize for that ignorance.

Rape Culture is basically comprised of any behavior that contributes to the sentiment or the literal idea that coercing another person into unwanted physical/ sexual activity is an ok thing to do. 58% of college men who think it's ok to 'force' a women into sex constitutes a specific population that engages in behaviors which constitute a 'culture' of rape, though they are certainly not the only portion of the population who engages in such behavior. The point is not that everyone is a rapist, or even that every man is a rapist or even a potential rapist, but that men as a group perpetuate rape culture and allow rapists to benefit from it.

This is a real term that describes an actual phenomenon that is happening everywhere and, although it can affect men as well, it affects women and children by much larger margins.

Now, I can appreciate that you are largely unaware of this stuff and have made some pretty sexist remarks as a result, but if you knew you weren't educated about these issues, why on earth would you enter such a conversation in the first place?

[JustPlainGirl]

Originally Posted by Red Mage Black

Those results really don't surprise me. There are some pretty horrible people out there and it's scary to think that one of those statistics could actually apply to someone you know and possibly see on a daily basis.

This isn't something new to women. This is a reality and fear we have to live with almost every moment of our lives from puberty onward (and often earlier than that). THAT is rape culture. Rape culture is that statistics like this are a reality of life for people like me who are unfortunate enough to look like women. Rape culture is that the attitudes in that statistic are normalized in a society in which I am required, at minimum, to go to work and school with people who hold these ideas. Ideas that it's ok to force me into having sex with them, whether by manipulation of physical force, and that something I did made it ok.

That's rape culture.

[pochercoaster]

RMB, and anyone else who's suspicious of feminism, could benefit from watching this cool video here:



Here is some more information about rape culture. I'm just linking these articles because they are written more eloquently than anything I could type up right now. Here's some quotes though:

I think the simplest way I can define rape culture is any society in which certain norms work together in such a way that it creates a culture in which rape and other forms of sexual assaults/violations are easy to commit.

There are thousands if not millions of issues that contribute to rape culture and I think that analyzing all of them would just be too much for a blog post, that’s the kind of thing that could take up a book. So instead I’m just going to note some of what I think are the most salient contributors to rape culture in the US

Dehumanizing and devaluing of people through things like Racism, Sexism, etc…
Normative Bullying and Policing
Victim Blaming
Slut Shaming
A society that doesn’t value consent
A society that doesn’t value bodily autonomy/integrity as important rights for ALL people.
A society that doesn’t recognize non-physical forms of abuse as abuse and/or doesn’t take non-physical forms of abuse seriously.
A society that doesn’t recognize all the various forms of coercion that exist, doesn’t take coercion seriously, and doesn’t understand that coerced consent is not consent at all.
A society that doesn’t respect the agency of certain people and actively denies and seeks to destroy the agency of those people.
There’s definitely more but I think these are the most obvious, overt, and impactful issues. Anyone who’s interested in suggesting additions is more than welcome to submit something.

Each of the aforementioned problems makes it easier for rapists to commit rape AND not get prosecuted or convicted for their crimes thus allowing them to commit multiple rapes over time. If we lived in a world where these problems didn’t exist rape as a crime would not exist in the same way it currently does. Rapists would be caught and convicted more often than they are, rape victims would not fear reporting the abuses and violations they suffer, and people in general would be more supportive of victims and survivors.

[Fenris]

I just really want to say that Nique's infographic up there is absolutely sickening.

Like, holy shit, I hate my peers.

[rpgdemon]

Originally Posted by Red Mage Black

You see, that's not something I knew. I grew up with 4 sisters and over time, their abuse of the 'you can't touch me because I'm a girl' argument got on my nerves. Which to this day, one of them still does and constantly threatens me with the cops if I retaliate in any manner.

INCOMING DRAMABOMB WHEREIN RPG REVEALS MORE THAN YOU WANT TO KNOW. JUST SKIP THE POST, IF YOU WANT:

I just want to pop in here and mention, I've been in this situation, and it is super shitty. Like, I felt trapped, had nothing I could do to get out of it, no one takes concerns seriously, you're overreacting, and whatever. Like, I've been beaten before, verbally abused, and had to sit without reacting to it, just crying and wishing for it to stop, because no one would believe me about it, and I had no way of getting out of it. Happily, ****** has grown out of that phase, and we're still on pretty good terms, and people ended up believing me after I had marks to prove it.

So, I just want you to know, I totally understand and empathize with what you're going through, RMB. I have, myself, had those exact same thoughts of how unfair it was, and how more needs to be done to address the issues of men suffering from female harassment, and people need to open their eyes and just SEE what I saw, how females were fully empowered, FAR above what power and privilege I had.

Over time, the wounds heal. Physically, and mentally. As I said, ******* and I are on pretty okay terms now, and I don't mean to demonize her for what she did when she was younger. We still fight, yell at each other, and all that, and it still does honestly hurt a lot sometimes, and it probably hurts more than it's meant to, whenever it's coming from her, since she's not the only one to have said stuff like that to me before, it comes from both of my younger siblings. The tragedy of being a middle sibling, I suppose.

I will be completely honest in saying that when I was younger, I have felt threatened and terrified by feminism, because of these things. I felt like they had all the power in the world, and I needed to show the world how hard it was for me, and I had this big thing about how they shouldn't strive for feminism, but equality, and they just wanted FEMALES to be all set, and they had these terrible double standards and that if they wanted to be treated equally, they should treat men equally, not love these double standards!

But here's the thing. You and I have had a share of being treated "equally". Being treated "equally" means to be in such a shitty position that you have no way of getting out of, that you are terrified and want to curl up and cry and hide. Being treated "equally" means that society enforces and allows something as terrible as rape to be treated as normal behavior. Being treated "equally" means that you can't go forward and tell people what happened to you, because it was your own damn fault to begin with, and why did you wear that dress if you didn't want to get what was coming to you double entendre wink wink slutbag suck my cock too.

And it is SHIT. And no one should go through that, and you shouldn't wish equal treatment on anyone. And these issues aren't fringe cases either, it's the stark reality facing 100% of women, from 83.5 fucking percent of college males. What you and I have gone through? Fringe cases that, while terrible, are no where NEAR those numbers.

And you know what? What happens, when women DON'T have to live their life in constant fear? What happens when society doesn't view women as this hypocritically sexualized object, who despite that sexualization had better not show anything more than an ankle or they get what they deserve? We see people as people. And a person, inflicting any sort of harm on another person, is wrong. And help will be had for anyone who needs it, because society itself will not allow this to happen.

I know what you have gone through, and are still going through, RMB. It's hard, and no one acknowledges it, and if you need someone, I am here. But so many others are going through it too, in their own way, and they need help, and they need you not to blame them for the actions of your sisters. Just like you need them not to blame you, and believe me, no one does. It's just a shitty situation for everyone.