What is the basis for morality?

[Staizer]

The main problem that I see with incest isn't the reproductive repercussions, even though those exist.

The problem with incest is that it is a refusal to look into the world. Much like a lot of other sexually related problems, incest is what happens when a person is too afraid to believe they can have Person A and instead go with what they are familiar with, Sister A.

People such as this refuse to see that they can have a much more enriching relationship outside of their own box than inside of it. Once again, much like everything else people do to tell themselves that they don't need to "go outside."

[TheSpacePope]

Don't take that tone with other users, please. We like our threads unheated, and no one is being so brazenly rude or stupid as to deserve that. Your entire post was phrased in a manner very condusive to an uncivil argument, instead of a respectful debate.

I know I'm not a mod, but I didn't appriciate seeing that in here.

thank you for calming me down a bit nique!

Have you ever done anything your society as a whole considers immoral

I may have according to "my" society, but that is not what the discussion is about. The discussion is about where morality comes from. Because there is nothing that is universally accepted as bad or good, this is my point, there are always exceptions to every rule. As I have stated, morality comes from self, and the environment that self was reared in.
Of course you are talking about america's "society" which in fact is only a microcosim of the world. if you are using the principals of our society to judge other races, cultures, society's, then you will be fundamentally wrong for not being open minded enough. as I have stated many times. Morality is relativistic.

they also have a word for using your society's rules of belif to judge other people...

eth·no·cen·trism (thn-sntrzm)
n.

The tendency to evaluate other groups according to the values and standards of one's own ethnic group, especially with the conviction that one's own ethnic group is superior to the other groups.

[Xal]

Heh. Used to a bit more hostile-natured discussion forums... the habit's hard to shake. I'm guessing Space is too... the dictionaryspeak's one of the time-honored classics. Another time-honored classic is pointing out use of the words "obviously", "simply," and "of course" for reasons that would make this a bit too heated; my old specialty was metaargument, the fine art of drawing the "Because you argue poorly, you are stupid, and thus, so is whatever you are arguing on the behalf of." It's quite possibly the most offensive of the incendiary arts.

Anyhow, away from the tangent.

You missed the point of my original statement, Space, and for the third time I will now attempt to explain it. I understand that all moral systems grow in different patterns. What I found interesting was the study that said incest and attempt-to-not-kill were pretty much universally taboo. Understand this:

Those are not my opinion. They are a part of a report which I thought had a bearing on the discussion.

Your response as of yet... please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm attempting to remain civil here... seems to be "But that's ethnocentric." If my statement is correct, than of course it's ethnocentric. My society has that rule. Your society has it. Bob over in Swaziland has it. If my statement is correct, it's ethnocentric for *everyone.*

If you can name for me three societies where incest was considered non-taboo among the common people, I'll concede total defeat. If you can name one, I'll be impressed. There is but one further condition, which I am PMing to Nique... to name it would be to not allow you the chance of falling afoul of it.

[Skyshot]

Another time-honored classic is pointing out use of the words "obviously", "simply," and "of course" for reasons that would make this a bit too heated; my old specialty was metaargument, the fine art of drawing the "Because you argue poorly, you are stupid, and thus, so is whatever you are arguing on the behalf of."

Have you read these? You should. Somewhere in there it states that you can't claim a defender is the defender. Also, there's this guy as an example. (I'm not a Libertarian, and he still makes me cry.)

Also, British Royal Family? Obligated by law to marry and reproduce inside the family? Do they count or does it have to be the whole culture?

[TheSpacePope]

Look this isn't a discussion on incest so knock it off. it's called commmon knowledge. Skyshot got one and he wasn't even playing. So lets end the incest thing now. I am sorry I had to call you wrong.
*point to my rant*
Get on topic

ON topic

You keep saying that this report says, Attempt not to kill is a moral absolute. This is not true. actually I won't just say that, it's strawman, but please provide me with a link to your report on moral absolutes. It's not true for people which is what we are discussing. I'd like you to refer to the first post and please try to stay on topic. You are driving me nuts with your rantings about societal absolutes when I am not talking about them and they don't apply to what I am saying. A society can say that we don't condone killing, but have the highest murder rate in the world. (Sound familiar???) It is the people's morality that we are talking about and the people's morality determines the societal absolute. (or the majority ruling party, or theology, etc.) I mean really there are a lot of factors, but you can call that duck a kitty cat all you want but that ain't gonna make it purr.

here read carefully

What makes a person "unethical" or moral? Is there any universal set of ethics or is it relative? I hope we can try and answer these questions

okay, that is what we are discussing. just for future refrence.

edit: just for the hell of it
british royal family ( the commmon people accepted it)
The french royal family ( the commmon people accepted it)
the russian czars ( the commmon people accepted it)
hebrews--Abraham was married to his half sister--common practice.
icelandic peoples from 1500-1900
edit again:
i hope this makes you stop
this is recent
http://mdn.mainichi-msn.co.jp/waiwai...dm999000c.html

NOW CAN WE BE DONE WITH THE INCEST.
Oy!

[Xal]

among the common people

Please rephrase your response in the form of something that pays attention to the condition I gave.

[TheSpacePope]

Did you even read my response,
we are way done with this dude.

If you can name for me three societies where incest was considered non-taboo among the common people, I'll concede total defeat.

to which I responded

edit: just for the hell of it
british royal family ( the commmon people accepted it)
The french royal family ( the commmon people accepted it)
the russian czars ( the commmon people accepted it)
hebrews--Abraham was married to his half sister--common practice.
icelandic peoples from 1500-1900

this is recent
http://mdn.mainichi-msn.co.jp/waiwa...0dm999000c.html

Conditions met, at least 3 societies (european, hebrew, japaneese, icelandic) that's 4
Now please can we get back on topic.
[/conversation]

[Nique]

Heh. Used to a bit more hostile-natured discussion forums... the habit's hard to shake. I'm guessing Space is too...

Ok, fine. Just don't continue to bring it here...

Like with this;

"Because you argue poorly, you are stupid, and thus, so is whatever you are arguing on the behalf of." It's quite possibly the most offensive of the incendiary arts.

Dont do that, then.

If you can name for me three societies where incest was considered non-taboo among the common people, I'll concede total defeat. If you can name one, I'll be impressed. There is but one further condition, which I am PMing to Nique...

He met your conditions and I recevied no such PM. Incest is a modern taboo for reasons stated before. When there was no knowledge of such consequences in cousin-marriges in times past, there was no reason for it to be taboo, although it was probably still rare just based on the relationship concepts (a wife-husband relationship differs substancially from a brother-sister relationship).

Forms of incest have generally always been taboo - Namely, the disturbing Oedipus complex. Why? Well, THAT's what we're disscussing. Why morality exsists at all.

Originally Posted by The spacepope

Look this isn't a discussion on incest so knock it off. it's called commmon knowledge. Skyshot got one and he wasn't even playing. So lets end the incest thing now. I am sorry I had to call you wrong.

Originally Posted by Xal

Please rephrase your response in the form of something that pays attention to the condition I gave.

I wish I didn't have this urge to play mod here, but come on, Xal, Spacepope. You guys are doing the exact same thing at this point, and if this kind of behavior continues you're both going to attract negative attention from the moderators. Besides that, both of your arguments getting weaker & more off-topic.

[Levi Kornelsen]

I'll pitch in my two pennies.

Morality and ethics are constructs used to view specific processes internal to people, and they do a pretty decent job at it, or they wouldn't continue to exist.

From my own viewpoint, all morals and all ethics are based off of self-interest. However, it is important to clarify that from where I sit, "the self" includes everything that one has accepted as part of ones identity.

A mother who considers herself a mother has, by definition, accepted her children as part of her own identity - the children identify her as a mother. This basic principle applies right down to the point where she is proud to see them expressing her better traits, because it means that there is some portion of her own identity in them.

Assuming that such identity transfer is accepted, all moral and ethical decisions are selfish decisions.

That, of course, is just an opinion.

[Nique]

Self-Interest does not equal selfishness as the word is usually used, IMO.

This line of thought also excludes the concept of empathy & sympathy which in its most extreme forms is essentially selfless and illogical from a standpoint of self-preservation - but it exsists, however infrequently, nonetheless.

I think such self-less traits stem from our own feelings about ourselves - our self-interest. We can understand feeling pain, and not want it upon us. And we can somehow desire others to not have to feel such pain, even to the point where some will cause themselves pain so that others may aviod it.