Boycott Atlus

[Solid Snake]

I don't give a damn, not an iota!
Motherfucka I'm the straightest shota!!!!


Damn I love that song

[Jagos]

Originally Posted by Liz

Stop fucking lying.

That's actually a belief transphobic people have about trans men, so the game is reinforcing that belieft.

And that's where PCD actually came in to reinforce what I'm missing.

Later, the player is able to abuse the way Naoto feels about them to make them act more feminine.

Which is where PCD actually explains how and why that's bad.

Last, but not least, the swimsuit added for Naoto's character in Persona 4 Golden as well as a light novel Atlus has put out about Naoto that takes place several years after Persona sexualize Naoto as a woman.

Again, PCD actually shows the issue of why this is raising issues. It's not that I'm missing what you're saying. It's that the context was given by PCD on that issue that I understood it better.

[Sifright]

Originally Posted by Jagos

And that's where PCD actually came in to reinforce what I'm missing.



Which is where PCD actually explains how and why that's bad.



Again, PCD actually shows the issue of why this is raising issues. It's not that I'm missing what you're saying. It's that the context was given by PCD on that issue that I understood it better.

This is pretty eye opening, because liz said exactly the same thing in very slightly different words in previous posts.

Basically all of you guys are just biased against liz.

She makes a legit point you ignore it, some one else makes the same point. You laud them for their clarity and answering your question.

Earlier, Liz swears at the transphobic fuck, others do the same. You call out Liz for it and ignore every one else.

You guys are showing such blatent bias against liz.

[PyrosNine]

...I'm gone for a week and what the hell is this 17 page (if you have the long posts # per page option like I do) monstrosity? Why hasn't this thread been closed already? Just a cursory glance finds failures to separate company intent from the standards of a genre, unintentional failures to avoid sounding ignorant/hateful, and full of people unwilling to show any forgiveness for any real or perceived failures to not sound ignorant/hateful.

In the end it's all right and well for Liz to boycott Atlus, all that we have to do is either approve or disapprove this decision by the simple vote of whether or not we as individuals are willing to boycott Atlus ourselves. The argument of whether or not Liz is right to boycott Atlus is pointless even with tangible mountains of argumentative evidence in either direction, because with each position there is enough evidence to logically pursue or not pursue a boycott- in the end it comes to the subjective, depending on a person's values, values that are inalienable and unique to each person!

Liz has the right to attempt to convince others that Atlus should be boycotted for several real issues, but does not have the right to be upset that all parties do not immediately step in line. Similarly, we have the right to disagree either to a degree or wholeheartedly, but do not have the right to attack Liz for attempting to convince us differently from what we believe.

I think this thread should be closed, and the next time Atlus comes up as a topic of interest, Liz should be free to restate this thread's opinion, and others should be free to reply with a disagreement, as long as it does not derail a thread or result in flames, either the verbal or the literal as someone decides not to put up with this bullshit and sets the server on fire.

[Jagos]

No, it's not a damn bias against Liz. Jeezus H tapdancing Xist!

It's a frustration with how he uses his examples. It's a frustration at Liz wanting to bring about a change and trying to show a few examples to help Liz make her arguments. It's a frustration with how I try to use a logical argument, which PCD and SS are using to convince me of the exact same things that Liz's use of rhetorical and more emotional writing is lost on me. No, it's not a bias against Liz because of past experience and that's never been the issue.

Let me spell this out for you Sifright because I'm real tired of being accused of something that I'm not doing. I have not played many Atlus games. I don't have a lot of experience with Atlus games to make an informed decision. The most I know of is how Disgaea gives their protagonist a weakness to big breasts. So when you're saying "oh, the game is transphobic" and there's rhetorical writing, it turns me off. This right here is what I'm talking about:

In the game, she is the only woman given nightmares that the audience is told only men get. She gets the dreams for "tricking" a guy she slept with, further characterizing her as some trickster when the honest truth is trans women aren't obligated to tell people they're trans, because society is transphobic as fuck and fucked up.

The part in bold is meant for an emotional plea for the reader to understand what the writer is saying. That doesn't work for me. Sorry. I don't care how much you want me to plea with you, I want facts and objective writing. I get involved with a lot of different motions for change and this one needed to be backed up which is why I made the post that I did. Here:

Persona 4 dismisses Naoto's trans identity as "just wanting to get away from sexism", an idea that is commonly believed by transphobic people about trans men. It's reinforcing a negative attitude towards trans men that already exists in culture. Furthermore, it uses a "mad scientist experiment" as a metaphor for gender reassignment surgery.

Why am I critical? Because I know nothing about the dismissal. Liz makes the assumption that I've played the game to understand her narrative and I have not. It's just an automatic "well this reinforces a negative attitude" and yet I'm left wondering what is the negative attitude? This is why I lauded PCD for actually explaining how that negativity was reinforced with his post:

Originally Posted by PCD

Even if you believe that Naoto isn't a transgender man, and really is just struggling to get ahead in a male-dominated society, that doesn't change the fact that her character storyline is painfully, grossly mishandled. The instant the other characters discover she's a woman, they start treating her as though she shouldn't be left alone, like she needs an escort and to be protected--this wouldn't be a problem in and of itself, since she did just go through the harrowing TV experience, if they didn't keep saying things like "Listen here, missy," and "You're a girl, after all." In other words, totally justifying the idea that she can't be taken seriously as a woman.

To which I went "oh... She hasn't found her identity and now others are automatically reinforcing their identity onto her. That IS fucked up"

In other words, PCD reinforced Liz's words more succinctly by answering the questions she failed to clarify. That's a good thing that is a part of a debate and the hard part about Liz's writing. It left more questions in my head and holes in the logic. Sure, I watched Naoto in the shadow realm and I came away with a different conclusion of it. To which I had to clarify the position that I had taken. I asked "wait, how is our conclusions coming to be so different?" and what do I get?

Condenscension from some supposed bias.

To answer you, Sifright, I'm not against Liz except that her narrative has holes and I'm asking for clarification. But if the only thing you're going to do is lash out at anyone that doesn't agree with you when they know nothing about the subject at hand, it's difficult as all hell to agree with you even if I want to help in some way shape or form.

Further, last time I'll say this, I would look up people that have better campaigns and see what they're doing. Anita was pretty good as well as possibly looking at the League of Gamers and how they promoted change on SOPA. If you want change it's going to take a sustained effort and a lot of time. One of those is building a credible narrative that explains the issue succinctly along with pushing for change as most people probably don't know all details about a subject.

[Sifright]

Originally Posted by Liz

The artbook for Catherine refers to a trans woman as a man and calls her Eric. In the game, she is the only woman given nightmares that the audience is told only men get. She gets the dreams for "tricking" a guy she slept with, further characterizing her as some trickster when the honest truth is trans women aren't obligated to tell people they're trans, because society is transphobic as fuck and fucked up.

Persona 4 dismisses Naoto's trans identity as "just wanting to get away from sexism", an idea that is commonly believed by transphobic people about trans men. It's reinforcing a negative attitude towards trans men that already exists in culture. Furthermore, it uses a "mad scientist experiment" as a metaphor for gender reassignment surgery.

The Persona 4 animation includes a scene where a "shadow" version of Kanji hits on two male characters and is generally flamboyant, and their response is wanting to beat the shit out of him. Homphobic, straight men beating up gay men for being "too gay" or for hitting on them is another problem that actually exists in our society. The anime trivializes this major issue.

I already offered an example of transphobia in Persona 3.

In Persona 2, a background "joke" in one of the stores revolves around Eikichi, a straight male, being attracted to a trans person. (Special Note: In the fan translation of the original release of the game, the joke is about Eikichi being attracted to a trans woman. In the Atlus USA translation of the PSP version, the joke is about Eikichi being attracted to a trans man who is for some reason wearing female gendered clothing.)

The Etrian Odyssey games regularly sexualize the women far more than the men, which is made far worse by the fact that they're sexualizing childlike bodies.

In Persona 4, literally the only black character in the game has an afro, is called "Funky Student", and talks in that sort of "Straight up, dawg, let me lay down some knowledge on you" kinda way.

Shin Megami Tensei: Strange Journey casts a South American character as the Chaos hero while it aligns a blue eyes blond hair character with Law. It's rather hard to dismiss that as mere accident when you notice the rather overt similarities between Law and communist dictatorship and the Law character is from Russia. Ergo, making the guy who gets fused with a demon and therefore becomes "less human" and naturally got along better with demons to begin with be South American is probably some "subtle" racism.

These are examples off the top of my head. Given more time, time with which I can collect more evidence and more examples, I can list a lot more shit. All of these are easily verifiable fact. Particularly the anime example, which you can find with a quick skim of the anime's seventh episode, and the Etrian Odyssey example, which you can find by looking at their goddamned character art.

If those examples aren't enough for you to get it, then I'm done wasting my time on you.

Originally Posted by Liz

Apparently you missed the part in this thread where I explained that Persona 4's trans character is really horribly handled. Their dungeon ends with them "accepting their true self" and no longer presenting as a man. The resolution is that "Naoto wasn't really a trans man, they were just trying to escape sexism." That's actually a belief transphobic people have about trans men, so the game is reinforcing that belieft.

The game also uses a mad scientist experiment as a metaphor for gender reassignment surgery. Later, the player is able to abuse the way Naoto feels about them to make them act more feminine. Last, but not least, the swimsuit added for Naoto's character in Persona 4 Golden as well as a light novel Atlus has put out about Naoto that takes place several years after Persona sexualize Naoto as a woman.

All that is pretty fucked up, so maybe you should stop talking about how people should be grateful Atlus is trying at all.

........

Jagos. just... dude.

[Fenris]

Seriously Jagos, new rule, if you're going to post in a thread, you actually have to read it first.

[akaSM]

The only experience I have with Atlus is the first DS Trauma Center game but, after seeing this thread, fuck Atlus, I'm joining this boycott.

[CABAL49]

I would like to make some more contributions to the cause, but I am moving back to the States in a few weeks and have to get everything packed and whatnot. But come August you will have my full support for this cause. I also think we got a lot of the stupid out of the thread.

If I were to make some suggestions on how to help, from what I have read here and other places, it seems that people still don't grasp what being transgendered is. And perhaps explaining other terms that are important, like hetero male gaze. We spend a lot of time on that because people misinterpreted it or didn't understand it.

[Kim]

Partially obscures the face, somewhat dehumanizing the woman on the cover and puts her partially revealed chest just above the title. I believe I overuse the phrase objectifying, but I'd still say this is a textbook example of it.