A conversation about conversations about bigotry

[shiney]

Originally Posted by Bob The Mercenary

Who are you and where the fuck is shiney?

I'm trying this newfangled thing called "Not moderating with obvious bias." It's not easy.

[Relm Zephyrous]

Originally Posted by Solid Snake

...I'm not really sure if the rest of your arguments throughout this thread has portrayed with any degree of consistency that you actually know what 'rape culture' is, as contrasted with merely assuming that you know what it means.

I'd strongly advise you to read Pocheros' posts again, at any rate.

Description of sex culture.

I have a BA in Psychology, and am pursuing a doctorate. While not everything in what you said is covered, I know what the general idea of sex culture is. Sexually deviant acts are not my speciality so I do not know all of the specifics, but I understand the concept.

Originally Posted by Solid Snake

Rapes occur everywhere, at far too high a rate, in every sector of society. Rape is not occurring in any one jurisdiction. It is not limited to one culture, one ethnic group or one socioeconomic status of wealth. It is not limited to one geographical location. Perpetrators vary by age, victims vary by age. While certain generalizations can be made about large swaths of victims -- for example, statistics I recently quoted suggest a majority of rape victims are girls under the age of 18 -- the fact is, this is a universal problem as a result of male privilege.

I also know what the phrase male privilege means.

Originally Posted by Solid Snake

Again, your attempts to narrow the field of inquiry to a very specific subset of 'social structures' or presumably ages or geographic areas or anything else that would contribute to a 'higher likelihood' of rape miss the point. Rape is not a disease. It is caused by perpetrators who make the conscious decision to take advantage of a victim. And it happens everywhere, because 'rape culture' is ubiquitous and all-pervasive.

You're attempting to corridor rape into this nice little box and attempting to identify specific factors that are responsible for rape because you don't want the message to sound anything like: "Men everywhere are the problem, so women should fear men."

Just because it is in multiple places does not mean it is this looming problem that defies examination. And this 'conscious decision' is caused by the culture itself, which is something we can study and understand.

Originally Posted by Solid Snake

-it requires a response that is not conditioned among a set of discrete factors we can label that dispel men of their obligation to clean up the mess the patriarchy has wrought.

This is an interesting idea. Don't make a rigid standard, because then the people currently in power might utilize the knowledge of that standard to preserve a patriarchy under that system. Something I genuinely didn't think of. Glad I'm still learning.

Originally Posted by Solid Snake

The mere fact that culture as a whole is all kinds of hella awful due to male privilege is not akin to a direct condemnation of every individual man, everywhere.

I understood this all the times you said it in different words. And no I do not think that anybody here is condemning people this way. So why do people keep insisting I think this?

Originally Posted by Solid Snake

It is about saving your integrity, or rather the integrity of a group among which you self-identify as, but I'm not sure you know it just yet. Or rather, I'm not sure you want to believe it.

I'll be completely honest, some of this 'did' become about saving my integrity. But not for the reasons you've just listed. It became partially about my integrity when people started questioning it, and when questions of my integrity became a legitimate barrier to being understood. For example, a post like this...

Originally Posted by Nique

I have no idea why you are expecting anything different since everyone has been explaining why your arguments are terrible and a huge derailment to the issue and providing objective evidence to that effect for like 4 pages now so ??????

...suggests that Nique at the point of posting this statement believed that I did not think sexual assault is a terrible thing. And if somebody questions my integrity and thus colors everything I say negatively for it, it then becomes a barrier to communication.

Originally Posted by Solid Snake

Your primary goal throughout this whole charade is to question the validity of a statistic that you didn't want to believe because of what it said about men. Even after I supplied evidence regarding the source of said statistic that suggested that the statistic was, in fact, an accurate reflection of how (at least college-aged) men behaved and acted, you've persisted and you've refused to concede. I can't think of any other explanation for your stonewalling here.

I conceded that there is a portion of people that indeed think that way. I have not outright stated that it is a false piece of evidence. We are back at the point that you seem to be primarily interested with "does this bring up cause for social reform", and that I am interested in "what exactly does this problem look like so as best to reform it". This is primarily a difference in how we go about thinking about the issue, I could even draw an analogy to our professions with this.

You are a lawyer, so you are looking for a verdict. I am a psychologist and a philosopher, so I am looking into the 'why' of the problem after we've found out the verdict.

I have stated this was probably the root issue to that particular a long time ago, and that we were not very likely to convince each other that this problem. We've talked a lot more and learned a fair bit more. And as I have stated earlier, I do not think that beating this specific dead horse is going to accomplish much more than tire us out cognitively now that we've discovered the root issue.



@Premmy: I would list 5, 6, and 7, as Sexual Assault, and possibly 4 and 3 depending on what the other category is, because this is just putting an age category on top of what the actual offense is. Which makes it a degree worse.

But what you're saying mainly seems to suggest that making the when I say things like Domestic Violence is not necessarily rape, you believe that I am diminishing the importance of Domestic Violence. But what I am actually doing is making the distinction because they are at different levels of seriousness, and to let them both be called rape diminishes the importance of rape.

@MSperoni/Krylo: It was a joke. I hope that is obvious, but I will keep that to a minimum.

[Premmy]

Originally Posted by Relm Zephyrous

@Premmy: I would list 5, 6, and 7, as Sexual Assault, and possibly 4 and 3 depending on what the other category is, because this is just putting an age category on top of what the actual offense is. Which makes it a degree worse.

Sexual Assault is a Blanket Category under which many things fall. Rape is also a form of Sexual assault.

But what you're saying mainly seems to suggest that making the when I say things like Domestic Violence is not necessarily rape, you believe that I am diminishing the importance of Domestic Violence.

While Domestic Violence is closely related to Sexual Domestic Violence and they often times overlap. We're not talking about the gender politics of violence. We're talking about the definition and relative severity of different sexual crimes.

But what I am actually doing is making the distinction because they are at different levels of seriousness, and to let them both be called rape diminishes the importance of rape.

I don't see how it does, considering all of those things are already listed within the same Category of offense as Rape to begin with.

I'm totally 100% okay with comparing a Rapist and a Child Molester and saying "yeah they're pretty much the same kind of horrible"

Children cannot give consent as they are simply not mentally developed enough to "HAVE" consent to give. Anything Sexual you might do to them is Rape. The same goes for many of the elderly.

The effects of a back alley knife wielding rape are probably the same as the effects of a back alley knife wielding aggressive groping.

The effects friend getting you drunk and groping you are probably the same as them raping you.

[rpgdemon]

Originally Posted by Relm Zephyrous

Sociopaths alone are estimated to make up about 3-5% of the population, not less than 1%, just for clarification.Sociopaths alone are estimated to make up about 3-5% of the population, not less than 1%, just for clarification. Of course, this might be a cultural problem itself that needs fixing, but we'll leave that discussion for another time.

Lemme just derail for a second to say that I'm pretty sure sociopathy is something that you're born with, not a cultural problem. And there are a good number of high functioning sociopaths, who are no threat to anyone. To say that sociopaths are a cultural problem that needs fixing is disingenuous. All that sociopathy means is that you're unable to empathize with people, if I'm not mistaken, it doesn't mean that these people will go out and start committing mass homicide, unless they see it as beneficial to themselves in some way.

[Relm Zephyrous]

So now that I've done this bizarro thing called sleeping, I'm back. And... surprised that the thread has barely budged since I took that little time off.

Originally Posted by Premmy

Sexual Assault is a Blanket Category under which many things fall. Rape is also a form of Sexual assault.

Yes, but my point is that just because all Rape is Sexual Assault doesn't mean that all Sexual Assault is Rape.

Originally Posted by Premmy

I don't see how it does, considering all of those things are already listed within the same Category of offense as Rape to begin with.

They're under that category for being a sexual crime, that doesn't mean they are equal in severity.

Originally Posted by Premmy

I'm totally 100% okay with comparing a Rapist and a Child Molester and saying "yeah they're pretty much the same kind of horrible"

Children cannot give consent as they are simply not mentally developed enough to "HAVE" consent to give. Anything Sexual you might do to them is Rape. The same goes for many of the elderly.

While true, I would be perfectly okay with saying a child molester is as bad as a rapist, not all sexual abuse of a child is necessarily rape. Certainly groping a child and outright penetrating them are two entirely different levels of wrong, at least for the reason that one has great potential to directly harm and the other only has that potential to do so through the mental scars.

(A+B) > (A)

Originally Posted by Premmy

The effects of a back alley knife wielding rape are probably the same as the effects of a back alley knife wielding aggressive groping.

The effects friend getting you drunk and groping you are probably the same as them raping you.

I would disagree. I could present arguments on this but since it is a opinion matter, I would suggest to find a answer to simply ask a victim of aggressive groping for the answer.

"Hey, I'm trying to figure out just how your experience was, so do you mind if I ask you a question or two about how it went? ... Okay, thanks. You see I have this theory going that groping is just as bad as outright raping, and somebody disagrees with me. We're trying to figure out if victims of groping indeed are treated just as bad as those who were outright raped. So I was wondering on your opinion on this. Would you not care at all if they had raped you? The effects are likely the same with aggressive groping and outright rape, so it probably wouldn't have been any different. Still, it'd be nice to have the actual opinion of a rape victim on the matter."

Originally Posted by rpgdemon

Lemme just derail for a second to say that I'm pretty sure sociopathy is something that you're born with, not a cultural problem. And there are a good number of high functioning sociopaths, who are no threat to anyone. To say that sociopaths are a cultural problem that needs fixing is disingenuous. All that sociopathy means is that you're unable to empathize with people, if I'm not mistaken, it doesn't mean that these people will go out and start committing mass homicide, unless they see it as beneficial to themselves in some way.

Yes, that is how a lot of sociopathy works. However, there have been studies that show that the USA for example has more sociopaths per x amount of people than other areas do. I'd have to go dig up the particular studies since this was a while ago, but there has been study done into whether it is nature + nurture rather than just nature.

For more information, I will simply link to a credible source in the matter.

Originally Posted by PubMedHealth

Complications

Children with conduct disorder may go on to develop personality disorders as adults, particularly antisocial personality disorder. As their behaviors worsen, these individuals may also develop drug and legal problems.

[Sinvael]

Also, since you mention it directly, I feel the need to point out that sexual assault is not rape. This is kind of like calling aggravated assault an attempted murder. Just because all rapes are sexual assaults, does not mean all sexual assaults are rapes.

That said I know that there are certain acts that are sexist that do not quite measure up to being rape. These are called sexual assault. Calling acts of sexual assault acts of rape degrades the term rape to mean something less serious than it actually means.

But what you're saying mainly seems to suggest that making the when I say things like Domestic Violence is not necessarily rape, you believe that I am diminishing the importance of Domestic Violence. But what I am actually doing is making the distinction because they are at different levels of seriousness, and to let them both be called rape diminishes the importance of rape.

I think there is a recurring commonality in your arguments, as exemplified here, as to the importance of distinguishing rape from similar, but different-in-degree acts (sexual assault), which may be undermining your understanding of issues others, Snake in particular, are trying to illuminate. While I believe you emphasize this difference in an attempt to gain clarity and precision, in insistently expressing that there is a relevant difference, you make an argument that bears a remarkable similarity to arguments that defend the status quo regarding rape and its victims.

Specifically, by constraining the kinds of actions that can evoke 'rape', they rob those, lesser actions, of weight. If 'rape' is only sex forcibly coerced from an actively unwilling victim, sex with an unwitting partner (drugged) is less than rape. If sex with an unwitting partner is less than rape, sex with a mostly-incoherent partner (drunk) is less than that. And unwanted physical contact is practically acceptable. And mere solicitation isn't even worth batting an eye at. And thus, the culture of rape.

Let me reiterate here that I don't believe this even remotely resembles your intent in insisting upon the distinction. Indeed, where my attempt at describing the process by which the culture of rape is defended and perpetuated relies on distancing lesser acts from rape so as to make them more acceptable, you frame the distinction in terms of distancing rape from lesser acts so as not to diminish the weight of rape itself. However, I would invite you to question whether reserving a certain, sacred level of horrible-seeming-ness for the worst manifestation of a deplorable category of actions and behaviors is valuable in lessening tolerance for those behaviors generally.

[Fenris]

Originally Posted by Sinvael

I think there is a recurring commonality in your arguments, as exemplified here, as to the importance of distinguishing rape from similar, but different-in-degree acts (sexual assault), which may be undermining your understanding of issues others, Snake in particular, are trying to illuminate. While I believe you emphasize this difference in an attempt to gain clarity and precision, in insistently expressing that there is a relevant difference, you make an argument that bears a remarkable similarity to arguments that defend the status quo regarding rape and its victims.

Specifically, by constraining the kinds of actions that can evoke 'rape', they rob those, lesser actions, of weight. If 'rape' is only sex forcibly coerced from an actively unwilling victim, sex with an unwitting partner (drugged) is less than rape. If sex with an unwitting partner is less than rape, sex with a mostly-incoherent partner (drunk) is less than that. And unwanted physical contact is practically acceptable. And mere solicitation isn't even worth batting an eye at. And thus, the culture of rape.

Let me reiterate here that I don't believe this even remotely resembles your intent in insisting upon the distinction. Indeed, where my attempt at describing the process by which the culture of rape is defended and perpetuated relies on distancing lesser acts from rape so as to make them more acceptable, you frame the distinction in terms of distancing rape from lesser acts so as not to diminish the weight of rape itself. However, I would invite you to question whether reserving a certain, sacred level of horrible-seeming-ness for the worst manifestation of a deplorable category of actions and behaviors is valuable in lessening tolerance for those behaviors generally.

I think you're going to go pretty far here.

[Terex4]

I like this guy. Can we keep him?

[Premmy]

Yes, but my point is that just because all Rape is Sexual Assault doesn't mean that all Sexual Assault is Rape.

My point is they're all equally as horrible and should be treated as such.

They're under that category for being a sexual crime, that doesn't mean they are equal in severity.

No the fact that they accomplish pretty much exactly the same thing by exactly the same means does.

While true, I would be perfectly okay with saying a child molester is as bad as a rapist, not all sexual abuse of a child is necessarily rape. Certainly groping a child and outright penetrating them are two entirely different levels of wrong, at least for the reason that one has great potential to directly harm and the other only has that potential to do so through the mental scars.

(A+B) > (A)

Yeah, except. Go up to a victim of a violent rape (assault/a+rape/b) and say "Would you have been alright if he had just raped you and not also beat the shit out of you?" and enjoy the violence visited upon you that you would deserve in that situation.

At this point we're arguing the "who got raped harder" point and that's just so very horrible I don't know how to respond. This is exactly the line of thinking that serves to perpetuate rape culture by giving victim blamers and deniers an "out". "Hey, at least you didn't get raped AND MURDERED" "hey, he didn't hit you or stick his dick in you so it wasn't really rape, or at least, not a serious rape"
At the end of the day it's pointless nitpickery that only serves to cause more harm.
It doesn't help "focus the problem" it just creates "sides" to take in a "debate"

I would disagree. I could present arguments on this but since it is a opinion matter, I would suggest to find a answer to simply ask a victim of aggressive groping for the answer.

This one is actually kind of funny, though:

"Hey, I'm trying to figure out just how your experience was, so do you mind if I ask you a question or two about how it went? ... Okay, thanks. You see I have this theory going that groping is just as bad as outright raping, and somebody disagrees with me. We're trying to figure out if victims of groping indeed are treated just as bad as those who were outright raped. So I was wondering on your opinion on this. Would you not care at all if they had raped you? The effects are likely the same with aggressive groping and outright rape, so it probably wouldn't have been any different. Still, it'd be nice to have the actual opinion of a rape victim on the matter."

In that it's completely horrible

I'm arguing that people who experience similar things suffer equally while you're arguing that some people suffer less than others. If we are interested in any way in helping to end suffering or prevent it, we'd address the "more severe" issues first. Treat the head wound before the rash.

So basically, it is minimizing other forms of sexual violence to try and "Rank" them by the inherent nature of putting it "below" another form of sexual violence.
You can't say X>Y without minimizing y.

[Dracorion]

Originally Posted by Terex4

I like this guy. Can we keep him?

I don't know, are you going to feed him?

You know what happened to your pet rock!