One Racist to Rule Them All

[Lucas]

Uh, it might be me.. but no one's mentioned that tolkien was partly a theologist.. his name is on the list of translators for the new jerusalem bible and others...

The entire middle earth buisness is tolkien's adaptation of the bible into a bedtime story for his son, or something, which makes a heck of a lot of sense in certain places (jesus/gandalf parallels)

[Sky Warrior Bob]

Originally Posted by Lucas

Uh, it might be me.. but no one's mentioned that tolkien was partly a theologist.. his name is on the list of translators for the new jerusalem bible and others...

The entire middle earth buisness is tolkien's adaptation of the bible into a bedtime story for his son, or something, which makes a heck of a lot of sense in certain places (jesus/gandalf parallels)

No, I don't think Lord of the Rings can be boiled down into an allegory, or an adaption of any one influence or story. Yes, Tolkien might have allowed the Bible to influence his writing, as well as using what he knew of World War II, and other wars, to shape how his battles enfolded.

I mean, I could point to Rohan of having a Beowulf connection, in the way the society is set up (Something I picked up from the DVD). If fact, while I didn't watch it fully, there's a whole big story on Tolkien's influences on the Two Towers Extended Edition. Which suggests a number of elements that affected Tolkien's life.

I mean, did you know that Tolkien and a tight knit group of intellectuals (includding CS Lewis) were really into Greek classicial lit, as well as old english sources ala Beowulf?

Anyway, Lord of the Rings is a story in of itself. Sure some elements may have origins from elsewhere (its been suggested that Treebeard was based on CS Lewis, as Lewis was infamous for a booming sort of voice), but it isn't anything in particular.

SWB

[Crodevillian Team]

I'm quite sure everyone knows this already, but I don't see that it's been mentioned.

Tolkien's work was heavily influenced by Norse mythology. (Which much of the Final Fantasy series is, as well.) In Norse mythology, humans live on Midgard, or Middle Earth. The name of the character Gandalf comes from the Norse writing "The Poetic Edda." The concept of the "Nine Rings" comes from Odin's ring Draupnir, which made eight copies of itself on every ninth night. The cursed ring, the Nazgul, dwarves, etc., all have parallels to Norwegian mythology. I invite you all to visit this particular site for a more detailed comparison.

Most modern fantasy and role-playing games have their roots in Norse mythology. Fire Giants, Ice Giants, Elves, Dwarves and so on and so forth all derive from Norwegian myths. Without them, it's likely the fantasy genre would be extraordinarily different (and boring).

With his interest in mythology, it seems unlikely to me that Tolkien was in any way attempting to parallel his writings to any particular event. I think he used his many influences, (Norse mythology most of all), and simply crafted an interesting story.

[Crodevillian Team]

Apologies for the double post, (I meant to edit my old post, not create a reply) but it appears that the site has exceeded its Bandwith. I'll post the relevent text, and ask you to visit the site later when its bandwith is restored. The link is http://www.geocities.com/licia_north/norse.html

The Norse Elements in LotR:


(Tolkien terms in bold)


The Ainur (Valar and Maiar), the "Holy Ones" - Comparable to these two orders of first beings in 'The Silmarillion' are the Norse gods themselves, who were divided into two factions--the older race of VANIR and the younger AESIR (of which Odin and his contemporaries were members).

The Ring of Power- There are numerous "rings of power" in Norse myth. The most famous was called DRAUPNIR, and was Odin's own ring. It was forged by the dwarf brothers Sindri and Brokk, and every ninth night the ring dripped gold to make eight copies of itself. Unlike Tolkien's One Ring, DRAUPNIR represented the fertility and power of the world.

Another more infamous ring was called ANDVARINAUT, forged by the dwarf Andvari as the prize of his own immense hoard of gold. When the wicked god Loki demanded the ring, Andvari put a curse on it to cause the doom of whoever wore it. And the curse worked--it caused the maiden Brynhild to kill herself when her lover Sigurd gave her the ring as a gift (she became convinced Sigurd had betrayed her). It also caused Fafnir to slay his own father Hreidmar in greed to protect his treasure. Fafnir later used the ring's power to turn himself into a dragon to guard this treasure (not unlike Smaug in 'The Hobbit').

Dwarves - There are many dwarves (or 'dwarfs') throughout Norse myth, and like Tolkien's creations, they were all great forgers and builders. ALVIS, for example, made the weapons of the gods, including Thor's great hammer. ANDVARI, like Celebrimbor, was a ring-forger. As were brothers SINDRI and BROKK, the underground hermit LAURIN, and ALBERICH, who forged a ring of power that caused a great war among the giants and lead to an ages-long search by desperate Odin and his contemporaries.

Bilbo and Gollum - There's a story in Norse myth about a hero named DIETRICH who won a ring from the dwarf LAURIN, who ruled a magnificent underground kingdom. After a test of wits, Dietrich won the ring, as well as a magic cape of invisibility.

Bilbo and the Trolls - Alvis, the dwarf who forged the weapons of the gods, was promised the hand in marriage of Thor's own daughter. Thor did not approve of this at all, so he tested Alvis' wisdom, questioning and arguing with the dwarf until dawn's first light, when Alvis turned to stone.

The Nazgûl - It might sound like a stretch, but Tolkien's black riders share many similarities with Odin's VALKYRIES. More modernly seen as more feminine symbols of courage, early Valkyries were bloodthirsty demons of death who ravaged battlefields astride bat-winged dragons, enslaved by their lust for Odin's ring Draupnir.

Aragorn & Arwen - The beautiful Norse goddess of fertility, FREYJA, had a human lover OTTAR, who was the leader of a nomadic band of mercenary warriors. Freyja was the possessor of the Brisings necklace, and wore it to ensure Ottar's devotion, as it enhanced her already divine beauty. When obligations of the mortal world threatened to pull Ottar away, Freyja sacrificed the necklace in order to obtain the magic to keep Ottar with her in the immortal world.

The Mearas - Odin had an eight-legged stallion named SLEIPNIR ("Glider"). He was the swiftest horse of all horses and could travel over sea and through the air.

Aragorn - Almost every religion in the world has a figure with a destiny similar to Aragorn's "triumphant return of the king." The Egyptians have OSIRIS, the Sumerians had TAMMUZ, and the Greeks had ADONIS. The Celts had KING ARTHUR, who's supposed with his Knights of the Roung Table when needed. And the Norse had BALDER, a poetic and beautiful god tricked into death who returned to rule. Even CHRIST fits into this description.

Middle-earth - Norse plane of MIDGARD, the home of humankind.

I've been laughing so hard from reading this thread. Blue vans and Matrix Magus' indeed.

[Lucas]

my post was originally really short, because i sorta dislike using all my time to make long posts, but the point was that no one had examined the obvious theological connection between LoTR and the bible.

also, the story DID start out as a bible interpretation, just with names and characters coming from other literature.

anyways, rock on jedalf

But we are in agreement that this man is dumb and should be stoned for his ignorance?

[Martyr]

Stoned is a bit harsh.

He needs his tongue cut out.

Maybe some labotomyesque operation to impair the use of hands so he can't write down stupid ideas either.

And -then- we stone him?

[Muffin Mage]

Nah. Apply a white-hot poker to his abdominal area for a few minutes, and pop his spleen.

Or stone him, whichever is easier.