Pokemon Umbral Discussion 38: Shenanigans At Dawn, Sir!

[Menarker]

I beg your pardon? I didn't grasp that. Seperate upgrade from what exactly?

Let's say that I did agree to make it a seperate upgrade for 25 rage... What would the end result be like?

And how exactly would you perceive a Overblade's power compared to a Breeder of equal level before and after the nerf? Because the idea of 2 Xth Stage or Veterans pokemons attacking at the same time strikes me as pretty damn powerful in its own right, easily rivaling Slayers before taking Focus or even Divide (maybe twice!) for a possible 4 attacks or two empowered attacks. (Which could easily be focused on the same target)

[Geminex]

Oh good lord what the hell is this crap.
If we devoted all this time to actually doing something productive, like, say, taking over the world, we'd at the very least be in charge of Africa and a few parts of Asia by now. I mean dammit, guys.
...
Anyway, back to what I do best...

So, if the Demon class can get all the higher level upgrades of Overblade without having to spend 5+ levels of slayer to do so AND get other stuff they'd rather want instead of RDPA or accessories or Sweep, then why does Overblade exist aside from a roleplaying perspective?

Well, from what I've observed so far, the higher your level in a certain class gets, the better your upgrades are. More or less. Since you only get demon after level 5, you'd need to invest all of the levels you get after 5 (all of them) into demon to get the good stuff. That sorta makes up for the customization aspect, even if, I think, the power increases that come later are fairly minor (since, after all, equal power.)

If we each get to customize our own advanced classes, Menarker is going to min-max his shit so hard, and AB will aprove it, and then we will have to go through this little trainwreck between the two of you again and I won't have it.

Ok, what if Menarker promises not to do that? Menarker, in the interest of ending this discussion, will you promise not to do that? Or would you agree to a clause in the Regulations that says if you do that, everyone else gets to go medieval on your ass?

The rest of the stuff...
Eeeh.
While there should be some stuff done in regards to the pokebrids, (though probably different from what you're suggesting, that just seems rather awkward) and I like the idea of making Slayers more accessory-focused, I feel that a lot of the other discussion could be avoided if we just finish discussing the "total customization" point. And agree on it.

And just a preview of what my stance will be if that gets thrown out the window: Second hold items: Extremely iffy. I'm sure there's another way to solve Drac's dilemma.

Ability shift: I made a suggestion for that before, whereby trainers picked a pool of 3-5 abilities that're thematic and about equal in power, and then got to switch between those for a minor rage cost (maybe depending on the strength of the ability?) whenever it suited them. I'm not sure whether this was gonna be just for leaders or for every pokemon. I'd say, if it's limited to leaders, the ability pool is 5, if everyone gets it, it's limited to 3. What d'you guys think of that?

Battle Masters deploying both pokemon: Again, eeeh. I'd reallly have to think about it. It is rather strong, after all. Hell, you could take a few levels in trainer, 8 in Slayer and go out into the field with the equivalent of 6 pokemon attacks! If we decided to self-customize, this'd probably be the "ultimate upgrade", the really strong one you get near the very end.

Edit:
And how are xth stage pokemon so powerful? I thought they just got a minor stats boost and a slightly stronger ability.

[Dracorion]

Originally Posted by Menarker

I beg your pardon? I didn't grasp that. Seperate upgrade from what exactly?

Erm...

I mean, just lump it inside one of the upgrades.

Originally Posted by Menarker

Let's say that I did agree to make it a seperate upgrade for 25 rage... What would the end result be like?

Basically? Once a Slayer reaches level 2 they have to pay 50 Rage to reuse accessories. Once they reach level 1-3, the cost gets reduced to 25.

Originally Posted by Menarker

And how exactly would you perceive a Overblade's power compared to a Breeder of equal level before and after the nerf? Because the idea of 2 Xth Stage or Veterans pokemons attacking at the same time strikes me as pretty damn powerful in its own right, easily rivaling Slayers before taking Focus or even Divide (maybe twice!) for a possible 4 attacks or two empowered attacks. (Which could easily be focused on the same target)

Compared to an Overblade with Double Attack?

Let's see... If Overblades get 20 Rage per attack, that's 40 Rage in one turn. As opposed to a Breeder, who would have to pay 25 Rage just to replicate the effect an Overblade would get for free.

Raw damage? Yeah, two Xth-level pokemon using Focus could do more damage than an Overblade using Double Attack.


EDIT: Well look who decided to wake up.

Originally Posted by Geminex

Oh good lord what the hell is this crap.
If we devoted all this time to actually doing something productive, like, say, taking over the world, we'd at the very least be in charge of Africa and a few parts of Asia by now. I mean dammit, guys.

...

Conquering the world doesn't feel nearly as rewarding as being proven right in an internet argument.

Hence: why we're here.

Originally Posted by Geminex

The rest of the stuff...
Eeeh.
While there should be some stuff done in regards to the pokebrids, (though probably different from what you're suggesting, that just seems rather awkward) and I like the idea of making Slayers more accessory-focused, I feel that a lot of the other discussion could be avoided if we just finish discussing the "total customization" point. And agree on it.

Be nice if you could give us some suggestions on Pokebrids.

I mean, level 6 is right around the corner! If we're going to go the total customization route, we need to give slowpokes like Dante and Bard time to come up with their shit.

Originally Posted by Geminex

And just a preview of what my stance will be if that gets thrown out the window: Second hold items: Extremely iffy. I'm sure there's another way to solve Drac's dilemma.

For what it's worth, while it did come as a result of me thinking about my dilemma, I would've proposed it even if I wasn't in a dilemma. I mean, it seems like kind of an obvious thing.

Originally Posted by Geminex

Ability shift: I made a suggestion for that before, whereby trainers picked a pool of 3-5 abilities that're thematic and about equal in power, and then got to switch between those for a minor rage cost (maybe depending on the strength of the ability?) whenever it suited them. I'm not sure whether this was gonna be just for leaders or for every pokemon. I'd say, if it's limited to leaders, the ability pool is 5, if everyone gets it, it's limited to 3. What d'you guys think of that?

Meh, same problem with current ability shift: the abilities would be useless.

With my suggestion, we'd get to pick one that compliments a pokemon's exisiting ability, even if the secondary ability is by itself completely worthless.

Originally Posted by Geminex

Battle Masters deploying both pokemon: Again, eeeh. I'd reallly have to think about it. It is rather strong, after all. Hell, you could take a few levels in trainer, 8 in Slayer and go out into the field with the equivalent of 6 pokemon attacks! If we decided to self-customize, this'd probably be the "ultimate upgrade", the really strong one you get near the very end.

Okay, yeah, I'm fairly certain PC Battle Masters would only get two combatants.

And if they don't I insist that we make it so.

[Geminex]

Raw damage? Yeah, two Xth-level pokemon using Focus could do more damage than an Overblade using Double Attack.

Oh come on. The Slayer's gonna have at least 1.5 times the attack stat of the x-th levels. He's gonna have stronger attacks (cause of better weapons and stab), better status effects (50% friggin' chance!), and he's gonna get more rage for those attacks. If the x-th levels both use focus, the damage they deal might be equal, but then the discrepancy between rage received by the two is even greater, since the trainers are spending, the Slayers are just raking it in. Honestly, it's nowhere near balanced, by any standards.

Edit: Oh, wait. You said that bit with the rage. Nevermind then. ^^

[Menarker]

Well, Gem, part of the thing is that this upgrade chart was created by AB to make the process easier for him to keep in mind who has which ability. Customization process sounds all fun and such, but that really should be run through by him, because free-range customization is hell for a GM.

As for my part, I'm seriously trying hard to stay within the rules while still being competitive. I'm keeping very much to the standard that AB set with few deviations, and even then I'm trying to be open with negotiations even more since I agreed to the deal you hoped out of everyone.

Also, several of the NPCs are battle masters and they don't seem to be all really high level. I can hardly imagine justifying denying Battle Master class until the very end. Mid-range, sure. But utter end-game? Not so much.

[Geminex]

Well, Gem, part of the thing is that this upgrade chart was created by AB to make the process easier for him to keep in mind who has which ability. Customization process sounds all fun and such, but that really should be run through by him, because free-range customization is hell for a GM.

Hence the deal I made. Free-range customization shouldn't be too much of a problem, since none of us would be asshole enough to break the tems of that deal and try to abuse it.

As for my part, I'm seriously trying hard to stay within the rules while still being competitive. I'm keeping very much to the standard that AB set with few deviations, and even then I'm trying to be open with negotiations even more since I agreed to the deal you hoped out of everyone.

The bit I bolded. WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU BEING COMPETITIVE? WHY DO YOU WANT TO BE STRONGER THAN US? THERE IS NO MOTHERFUCKING POINT! THE ENEMIES' POWER SCALES WITH OURS! THE ONLY THING YOU'RE ACCOMPLISHING IS INCREASING YOUR CHARACTER'S RELATIVE STRENGTH TO OUR CHARACTERS, MEANING RELATIVE TO YOU, YOU'RE WEAKENING OUR CHARACTERS. AND HOWEVERMUCH YOU WANT TO FEEL IMPORTANT AND IN THE CENTRE OF ATTENTION, THAT ISN'T JUSTIFIED. SO STOP WASTING MY TIME, STOP SCREWING THIS RP OVER BY WANTING TO BE THE MOST IMPORTANT, STOP TRYING TO BREAK THE SYSTEM, STOP TRYING TO BE THE STRONGEST AND JUST FUCKING TRY TO HAVE FUN.

Seriously, gah.

[Menarker]

I'm not saying I want to be more powerful than everyone else. Just powerful, period. We all want to be powerful to an extent. I want others to be powerful too, hence one of the reasons why I advocated that Pokebrids get a overall boost for Dante's sake since they were built pretty sub-par. Drac's Love Tech seemed quite overly powerful sometimes and my Support Techs are incredibly valuable but that doesn't really take away from the game. Mind you, I'm trying to work within the game and within the agreement to respect other people's power levels even though that currently means that the class I was hoping to go into is getting nerfed. But I'm not going to willingly sell my character short of power he earns or let him go far below other characters. Yes, I'm agreeing to try to work things out for balance, but being interested in the mechanics is part of the key to maintaining interest in the game.

[Geminex]

Ok, once again and not in caps this time: There is no "short of power" in this RP. Our enemies' strength depends on ours. It is a dependent variable. The only independent variables are the strengths of the other characters. When you make your character stronger, you are not making him better at combat, because his enemies will become stronger as well. The only thing you are doing is making him stronger than his allies.

Mind you, if this were a competitive RP, things would be different. I'd be acknowledging your attempts as more or less fair. I'd be probably doing a lot of that myself. But see, we're not competitive. Not supposed to be, anyway. But you are. You're competing against, harming, your allies. By weakening them.

We all want to be powerful to an extent, of course. But "power growth" only serves as a reward for completing missions, and to give the battle system a bit more depth, a bit more tactical structure. And while sure, it's fine to want to grow stronger relative to the past, if we conciously attempt to be stronger than our teammates, we're harming them. And that is, like I said, bullshit. I'm not sure if you understood this before, or even understand it now, but it's been the entire reason I've been having these fucking debates with you. And as you can maybe tell, I'm sick of it.

So once again, stop it. Stop it please. Stop it or else. Just stop it. Cause what has to be way more important than make-believe power is actual fun. And this? This hasn't been fun for the last 15 discussion threads.

[Dracorion]

You two better not be starting this up again.

I swear to God, if I have to read through eight long-assed gigantic bullshit posts I will cut you.

[Krylo]

Someone doesn't understand Mern very well.

I've seen the guy try to min-max free-form RPGs. It seems to be what he considers fun. He's probably the guy who sets his primary skills in Oblivion to Lock picking, Repair, etc. so that he can go about and get JUST enough skill gains in everything else to max out his stat gains at level up so that he's stronger in the long haul. He's probably the guy who grinds up all of his units in FFT to Samurai to get blade grasp and then boosts their brave to 100 to get nigh-immunity to physical attacks, and then drops their faith as close to 0 for nigh-immunity to magical ones (except that black mage he has with maxed out calculator for its secondary skill). And instead of finding it annoying, he enjoys it because he knows he's breaking the system.

What I'm trying to say here is that I am like 900% sure that a large part of the enjoyment that Mern gets out of any given RP system is figuring out and working the system like a cheap taiwanese whore, so telling him to stop working the system and have fun is kind of like telling someone to gouge out their ear drums and enjoy the damn music.

ANYWAY, I'm not in this RP so I'll let you people have your fun. I just found telling Mern to stop min-maxing and have fun hilarious.