Prometheus

[BloodyMage]

Originally Posted by The Sevenshot Kid

As someone that watched all of Lost on Netflix this year, it works just fine without any of that stuff. Definitely my favorite TV series ever which is the entire reason I was interested in seeing Prometheus opening weekend (Scott has been hit-or-miss with his last few films).

I'm not saying you can't. I'm just saying the podcasts and extra material are there for clarification.

Originally Posted by The Sevenshot Kid

I think we should all be able to agree that something is only canon once it shows up onscreen. Explanations given by the director/writer or the theories provided by fans mean nothing until they're put on celluloid because that's the only time it counts. George Lucas changed his mind a lot when making all of the Star Wars movies.

Originally Posted by Lumenskir

If it comes up later in a movie connected to this one, it's canon. If he says it was something they considered but didn't include in the actual product, it's just his interpretation. To me, anything outside of what you can see in the theater is all just conjecture; Scott might be more persuasive, but not authoritative, otherwise he could have included it in the actual movie he was responsible for curating.

Yeah, no, that's not how canon works. It's not as simple as what appears on screen vs. everything else. What about the TED viral film with Weyland speaking? What about any potential tie in novels? Scott and co. have already stated that Alien vs. Predator are not part of the continuity with this film, but since you've seen them does that just mean that it's Scott's interpretation that those films aren't canon? There has to be some kind of authority to make the distinction between what is official and what is unofficial. Of course, you can make your own decision but I can't stress enough that when you make your own decision of what in included in the continuity that is fanon.

To return to Lost, Lindelof and Cuse have explicitly stated that these are part of the canon of Lost:

• Lost episodes (noted by Lindelof as "the only true canon")
• Lost: Missing Pieces
• Lost Encyclopedia
• Information released as part of DVD extras, such as the The New Man in Charge epilogue featured on the Season Six DVD. (this does not include DVD commentaries, bloopers and deleted scenes see below)
• The Orchid Orientation film
• The Christiane I's search for the Black Rock from Find 815
• Information about the Hanso Foundation and the Valenzetti Equation revealed in The Lost Experience
• The blast door map, the Incident Room, and the Island locations as seen in the video game Lost: Via Domus.

Most of this was confirmed via interviews and podcasts. Are you going to say this is an interpretation of canon? As Lindelof states, the episodes are the true canon as they're the main source through which people, such as yourselves, experience the TV show, but that doesn't mean that the rest isn't still part of the official continuity.

As far as Space Jesus goes, Scott mentioned it, it doesn't conflict with any continuity in the film and actually serves as an explanation to one of the questions posed in the film. It's hard to view it as unofficial at that point. At the very least it's semi-canon, but Scott is still the guy who decides the continuity, not me.

[The Sevenshot Kid]

Canon is flexible. Anyone that reads comic books knows this. If it doesn't appear in the film or the viral marketing itself (I'm including the viral marketing because it was released in conjunction with the film) then it is malleable and subject to change. Splinter of the Mind's Eye was published as a sequel to Star Wars but had its canon overwritten by Empire Strikes Back.

The reason why we should take "word of god" with a grain of salt is that it's subject to change.

And for the record, I haven't seen Aliens vs. Predator nor do I intend to based solely on the fact that the idea of that crossover is stupid as all get-up.

[Lumenskir]

Most of this was confirmed via interviews and podcasts. Are you going to say this is an interpretation of canon? As Lindelof states, the episodes are the true canon as they're the main source through which people, such as yourselves, experience the TV show, but that doesn't mean that the rest isn't still part of the official continuity.

But if you're already dividing things into 'true' canon and everything else why should I care to keep up with and incorporate the, let's say, shadow canon that's mostly meant to either drum up or maintain interest in the 'true' canon? It's nice for dedicated fans or those that want to see what the creator thought, but if the creators couldn't be bothered to clarify it in the actual product then I don't really see why I have to go out of my way to change what I saw and thought.

As far as Space Jesus goes, Scott mentioned it, it doesn't conflict with any continuity in the film and actually serves as an explanation to one of the questions posed in the film. It's hard to view it as unofficial at that point. At the very least it's semi-canon, but Scott is still the guy who decides the continuity, not me.

Again, I could care less about the shadow canon, but you have to admit that Scott mentioning something in an interview doesn't even rise to that level. He has offered AN explanation, not THE explanation, especially when there could be literally any reason why a mostly ineffable and humanly incomprehensible alien race wanted to wipe the slate clean on their creation. The fact that he was perfectly able to insert a line of dialog to clarify Space Jesus and chose not to could equally suggest that he thought better of it and thinks it's preposterous.

[BloodyMage]

Originally Posted by The Sevenshot Kid

Canon is flexible. Anyone that reads comic books knows this. If it doesn't appear in the film or the viral marketing itself (I'm including the viral marketing because it was released in conjunction with the film) then it is malleable and subject to change. Splinter of the Mind's Eye was published as a sequel to Star Wars but had its canon overwritten by Empire Strikes Back.

Comic books are an entirely different medium though. It's like comparing literature and film. Television and film, however, have the same general creative process in conception, development, including such things as re-writes. Also, I'm not saying that Canon is set in stone. Lindelof and Cuse could turn around and state that The Lost Experience game is no longer apart of the canon and that would then be overwritten by the creative authority of the show's writers.

Also, why is the viral marketing included because it was released in conjunction with the film and things such as The Lost Experience, or Lost: Missing Pieces aren't considered canon when they were also released in conjunction? Just because you didn't experience them in conjunction doesn't mean that other viewers didn't.

Originally Posted by Lumenskir

But if you're already dividing things into 'true' canon and everything else why should I care to keep up with and incorporate the, let's say, shadow canon that's mostly meant to either drum up or maintain interest in the 'true' canon? It's nice for dedicated fans or those that want to see what the creator thought, but if the creators couldn't be bothered to clarify it in the actual product then I don't really see why I have to go out of my way to change what I saw and thought.

Because whether you appreciate the value of everything outside of the show is irrelevant to whether it's canon or not. Again, that's what makes it fanon because it's the information that you, the fan, have selected as the continuity that you follow. To the rest of the world, and the writers, the official canon will still be those points above.

Originally Posted by Lumenskir

Again, I could care less about the shadow canon, but you have to admit that Scott mentioning something in an interview doesn't even rise to that level. He has offered AN explanation, not THE explanation, especially when there could be literally any reason why a mostly ineffable and humanly incomprehensible alien race wanted to wipe the slate clean on their creation. The fact that he was perfectly able to insert a line of dialog to clarify Space Jesus and chose not to could equally suggest that he thought better of it and thinks it's preposterous.

That's why I said, at very least, it's semi-canon. As the writer, that's as near to an official explanation as we can get so far. If Scott doesn't release anything new to the series and no other films or information is released for the rest of time, that statement will stand as the most official statement of why the Engineer's turned on humanity. You can turn up with your own theory but Scott's will still hold more credence than yours. Not to mention, we have no idea why the Space Jesus didn't make it in other than 'it was too on the nose'. Maybe the Studio Executives interfered (as they have a habit of doing in the Alien Franchise) or maybe it got cut in the many re-writes that a story goes through from treatment to production. But unless Scott says otherwise, that's as official statement as we have concerning the engineers and their current hatred of humanity.

[RickZarber]

Originally Posted by BloodyMage

It's not a theory. It was proven in Alien3 with the dog/ox variants.

I meant only insofar as the slime was concerned.

BUT ANYWAY apparently the DVD/Blu-ray release is going to have 30 mins of deleted scenes, 20 mins of which will be incorporated into an extended cut of the film.

So, some answers forthcoming, maybe?


Also, by the way, we've been talking about only the plot the whole time. Which all of you saw the 3D version of this? I count this as only the 2nd movie I've ever seen where I was happy to have paid the extra cash for 3D.

[BloodyMage]

Oh, sorry.

My friend did say he felt like there had been a lot cut out of the film while he was watching, so it'll be interesting to see how much, if any, these extra scenes change the overall tone and portrayal of the characters

I only seen it in 2D though.

[Magus]

Originally Posted by The Sevenshot Kid

I still can't get over the fact that this movie showed what amounted to an on-screen abortion. Sure, it didn't work out too well but holy shit. This movie did some shit that I did not think a major studio movie was allowed to do.

It's been well-established that God has no problem with people aborting 1. alien parasites and 2. the Antichrist. Like the Pope has basically said this pretty sure. Also they decided to go with a caesarean which doesn't really resemble a traditional form of abortion, pretty sure.

Anyway, the stuff with the original plotline being that they wanted to kill humanity because they killed Jesus was pretty hilarious, but I'm not going to accept it as canon or even semi-canon. So many movies have ridiculous plot elements in them that are cut before the movie ever comes out...I'm pretty sure Scott does not intend for that particular element to be taken as canon (even if they kept in the crucified xenomorph).

[Lumenskir]

That's why I said, at very least, it's semi-canon. As the writer, that's as near to an official explanation as we can get so far. If Scott doesn't release anything new to the series and no other films or information is released for the rest of time, that statement will stand as the most official statement of why the Engineer's turned on humanity. You can turn up with your own theory but Scott's will still hold more credence than yours. Not to mention, we have no idea why the Space Jesus didn't make it in other than 'it was too on the nose'. Maybe the Studio Executives interfered (as they have a habit of doing in the Alien Franchise) or maybe it got cut in the many re-writes that a story goes through from treatment to production. But unless Scott says otherwise, that's as official statement as we have concerning the engineers and their current hatred of humanity.

This'll be my last word on the subject since I think we're just entrenching ourselves further at this point, so I'll just say that I think that as an artist you only get one bite at the apple when it comes to getting what you want to express across*; If I see a film in the theater that's what I'm going to analyze and consider, and letting a creator weasel in new information with interviews and bonus content shouldn't really be how things work. Plus, if I'm watching this movie on HBO in a few years with a friend, and she says "Oh, I bet the 2000 years line is a red herring meant to play on humanity's desire for patterns," I think it'd be vaguely sociopathic to go "Actually you're wrong, he mentioned an explanation they cut in an press junket interview, thanks for trying though," rather than "Huh, I never thought of that interpretation."

*I mean, exceptions can be made for things like Blade Runner where the studio just took it out of his hands and put in a plodding narration, but Scott's gone on record for insisting that this film keep the C-Section even if it meant getting an R; I think if he wanted a line hinting at Space Jesus he could have done it easy.

Also, by the way, we've been talking about only the plot the whole time. Which all of you saw the 3D version of this? I count this as only the 2nd movie I've ever seen where I was happy to have paid the extra cash for 3D.

I hate having to pay $8 extra for my movies, and it was actually harder to find a 2D theater playing. I tried to think of which scenes would have been markedly different, and I guess the orrery sequence would have been kind of cool if the planets were all around you, but it was still amazing looking even flat.

I gotta say, I love that Scott either maintained his weird sci-fi design aesthetic or kept the people responsible on the pay tab, because the look of everything was so refreshingly weird. Or maybe I just really love those awesome domed helmets.

[Magus]

Well much like Blade Runner perhaps the Extended Cut we get on DVD will fill in the holes for us. I mean I would consider a Director's Cut to be a "second chance" for any film.

[BloodyMage]

Originally Posted by Lumenskir

This'll be my last word on the subject since I think we're just entrenching ourselves further at this point, so I'll just say that I think that as an artist you only get one bite at the apple when it comes to getting what you want to express across*; If I see a film in the theater that's what I'm going to analyze and consider, and letting a creator weasel in new information with interviews and bonus content shouldn't really be how things work. Plus, if I'm watching this movie on HBO in a few years with a friend, and she says "Oh, I bet the 2000 years line is a red herring meant to play on humanity's desire for patterns," I think it'd be vaguely sociopathic to go "Actually you're wrong, he mentioned an explanation they cut in an press junket interview, thanks for trying though," rather than "Huh, I never thought of that interpretation."

*I mean, exceptions can be made for things like Blade Runner where the studio just took it out of his hands and put in a plodding narration, but Scott's gone on record for insisting that this film keep the C-Section even if it meant getting an R; I think if he wanted a line hinting at Space Jesus he could have done it easy.

I'm all for analysing and interpretation. Honestly, I am. But I realise there is a boundary between what I think and what the Creator thinks and I would admit what the creator thinks hold more credence. Are it the creator's thoughts better? Maybe not. I'm sure a lot of people can come up with better theories for why the engineers seem to hate humanity than Space Jesus. But thus far, the engineer's desire to off the human race has been a lingering question and Scott's concept of Space Jesus is the closest thing we have to an official explanation until a sequel or sequels come out which it's been heavily implied there will be. Of course, I have my own ideas about what could have set off the engineers, but that's the difference between canon and fanon.

And that would be pretty clunky dialogue for Scott to include a line about Space Jesus without having one of the Engineer's come right out and say it. Shaw pulling the aliens being their makers out of her ass is one thing but having someone randomly, and accurately come up with the notion that Jesus was on of them based on nothing is an entirely other all together.

Also, I would probably respond to that person about what the director or writer had said in an interview, though in a less jerk ass way. Like, 'oh, that's an interesting idea. Such and such said in an interview that s/he was going for this, but I like your idea better.' Then again, maybe I'm just a sociopath.

It will be interesting to see how much the director's cut actually does add to the film. Hopefully he uses the extra 30 minutes to flesh out the characters more.