Another Big Big Thread of Religious Discussion

[POS Industries]

Originally Posted by ZAKtheGeek

Actually, I misread what you wrote before. Never mind, I was objecting to something you weren't even supporting.

No worries. It happens.

[Serenity]

Originally Posted by POS Industries

I mean, if we're going to allow for "Well, we haven't been out there and so we just don't know what sort of life can really exist in different, un-Earthlike environments, so let's just assume that they exist" then it's perfectly reasonable to allow "Well, since we don't really know for sure how the universe was created, then let's just assume God did it", because both are totally unsubstantiated arguments.

We do know "for sure" (or as close as it comes without dogma and faith) how the universe was created.

And again, God is not a real answer - not a scientific one, or a rational one. It is a nonsense word that precludes any and all looking into the subject further. Plus it tends to be correlated with a specific God, rather than "some intelligent creator(s)", and denies checking the attributes of this particular creator.

If I was creating a universe for life? It most certainly wouldn't look like this one. Once you left the atmosphere, you wouldn't die. Once you touched the boundless sky, you wouldn't be forced to restrict yourself in ridiculous suits and/or gigantic heaps of metal with ludicrously complex systems in order to survive. You wouldn't be stuck in this solar system unless you were willing to spend years travelling to the nearest solar system, which, lucky you, is a goddamn binary system (which means the odds of there being a habitable planet is... low). I wouldn't make the closest thing to an earthlike planet in this system be a cold world that's only "earthlike" because it's got carbondioxide in the air and plants use that to breath (but not humans, lucky us) and has water... only the water is frozen.

But that's just me. I guess God decided to dick around with us a little.

[POS Industries]

We have a pretty good idea, more or less, how the universe came into being, yes. You know, except for the part where matter can't be created nor destroyed and so where the fuck did it come from?

And yeah, sorry, life is hard. I mean, sure, the entire universe could be made of ice cream and hot women giving blowjobs to anyone who asks, but then how would life grow and develop? The reason humanity has advanced so much is based entirely on the fact that the universe is a hard, sucky place to live and we continually figure out new and exciting ways of making it less hard and sucky.

I see it less as dicking around and more as giving existence a point.

[42PETUNIAS]

Well, if I was a god, I'd totally make it so that people couldn't leave the planet. I mean, who the hell wants to make more than one entire planet? That's a pretty fucking big workload.

[Serenity]

Originally Posted by POS Industries

We have a pretty good idea, more or less, how the universe came into being, yes. You know, except for the part where matter can't be created nor destroyed and so where the fuck did it come from?

If matter can neither be created nor destroyed, then where the fuck did God come from?

Which is a greater leap - that there was a first cause, and it was a complex vaguely anthropomorphic (or not, depending on how you need to respond to criticism) God, OR that it was a big old clump of matter?

Originally Posted by POS Industries

And yeah, sorry, life is hard. I mean, sure, the entire universe could be made of ice cream and hot women giving blowjobs to anyone who asks, but then how would life grow and develop? The reason humanity has advanced so much is based entirely on the fact that the universe is a hard, sucky place to live and we continually figure out new and exciting ways of making it less hard and sucky.

Let me rephrase it for you. If I am trying to create life, why would I make it so goddamn hard for life to exist basically everywhere? Working for happiness is fine. But having to fight a very uphill struggle with the universe to even walk on Earth's natural satellite? No, strike that - having to deal with the very likely possibility that I will not live to the age of ten through no fault of my own? Just because I happen to catch smallpox or AIDS or any number of a billion-on diseases that used to be common causes of death before we got medicine and industrialization and the scientific method a meager few hundred years ago.

There's a difference between difficulty in the senses of "boy, this game is hardcore!" and "what the fuck my character just exploded for no goddamn reason!" - diseases make the latter true of Earth.

[ZAKtheGeek]

And yeah, sorry, life is hard. I mean, sure, the entire universe could be made of ice cream and hot women giving blowjobs to anyone who asks, but then how would life grow and develop? The reason humanity has advanced so much is based entirely on the fact that the universe is a hard, sucky place to live and we continually figure out new and exciting ways of making it less hard and sucky.

I see it less as dicking around and more as giving existence a point.

So the whole reason we're alive is to see whether or not we can figure out how to die less horribly?

Thanks, God! I love you too!

[Fifthfiend]

I've probably said this before, but if that is the point of life, then God's a dick.

[POS Industries]

Originally Posted by Serenity

If matter can neither be created nor destroyed, then where the fuck did God come from?

Which is a greater leap - that there was a first cause, and it was a complex vaguely anthropomorphic (or not, depending on how you need to respond to criticism) God, OR that it was a big old clump of matter?

Well, since the creation of both is equally impossible, I'd say both their existences should be equally laughable.

Let me rephrase it for you. If I am trying to create life, why would I make it so goddamn hard for life to exist basically everywhere? Working for happiness is fine. But having to fight a very uphill struggle with the universe to even walk on Earth's natural satellite? No, strike that - having to deal with the very likely possibility that I will not live to the age of ten through no fault of my own? Just because I happen to catch smallpox or AIDS or any number of a billion-on diseases that used to be common causes of death before we got medicine and industrialization and the scientific method a meager few hundred years ago.

There's a difference between difficulty in the senses of "boy, this game is hardcore!" and "what the fuck my character just exploded for no goddamn reason!" - diseases make the latter true of Earth.

Because AIDS and smallpox evolved and survived just the same way as every other life form on Earth. The universe isn't just some playground for us walking, talking ape-monsters. All those infectious diseases are lifeforms fighting to survive and reproduce the same as we are.

Either way, "life is hard" isn't proof one way or the other. It's just complaining because the universe isn't warm and fuzzy the way you'd prefer.

[Serenity]

Originally Posted by POS Industries

Well, since the creation of both is equally impossible, I'd say both their existences should be equally laughable.

I would say that a complex intelligence suddenly spawning is far less likely than a simple clump of lots of hydrogen atoms spawning.

Originally Posted by POS Industries

Because AIDS and smallpox evolved and survived just the same way as every other life form on Earth. The universe isn't just some playground for us walking, talking ape-monsters. All those infectious diseases are lifeforms fighting to survive and reproduce the same as we are.

Oh, I'm sorry, I thought you were proposing a deity who actually likes complex organisms, rather than mindlessly going to the middle and assuming that any quantity of the AIDS virus is worth the same as a single human life. I guess you're a maltheist then?

Originally Posted by POS Industries

It's just complaining because the universe isn't warm and fuzzy the way you'd prefer.

I ain't complaining - I'm making a point. Does anybody design a videogame with ridiculous crazy lazers that fall out of the sky and kill your character randomly? Of course not, because it would be retarded. Life can be hard in order to supply a struggle, sure. But there's a difference between a game of chess and the lottery. I won the lottery, buddy. I am not complaining about the lottery because I lost - but I'm complaining (if by complaining you mean pointing out that it's blatantly stupid to any deity who wanted complex life to form to include bacteria and viruses) that basically every person ever who didn't live in the last... oh, let's say four hundred years did, and a high portion of the population that did.

[Sithdarth]

We have a pretty good idea, more or less, how the universe came into being, yes. You know, except for the part where matter can't be created nor destroyed and so where the fuck did it come from?

Don't impose notions of human causality and linear time on the universe. Especially not to a time when the universe was almost completely governed by quantum phenomenon. Aside from the fact there doesn't actually have to be a beginning or end to time and the universe that whole quantum thing really gets in the way.

When the universe first started to expand, and where talking like femto seconds after the expansion started, it was wholly and completely quantum mechanical (well almost cause there might have been gravity and we have no idea how to make quantum mechanics and gravity play with each other). I'd say that before that it was governed by quantum mechanics but even quantum mechanics breaks down at those scales. Now quantum mechanically cause and effect aren't even remotely related in the same manner as they are in the macroscopic world. Time can flow just as easily one way as the other and you can't really tell were something is let alone how much energy it has. Its not hard to see why we might have a tiny bit of trouble when we try to apply the logic of our everyday experience to that situation.