Another Big Big Thread of Religious Discussion

[POS Industries]

Originally Posted by ZAKtheGeek

I don't know, it seems equally factual to me that the earth is round and that people don't come back to life many hours after having been crucified.

Yes, but it's a storybook and, as Sarah Silverman puts it, Jesus is magic.

However, given the biomechanics involved in animal functionality, it's not impossible to reanimate a corpse. There's an issue with the amount of time between death and resurrection in this case that would have resulted in some severe cellular necrotization, but it could still be doable with the right resources available. It's still not plausible, of course, but it's not fact that it's completely impossible to raise the dead.

But it is, once again, impossible for the Earth to have corners and for the stars to fall from the sky given the physical proportions and distances involved. These sorts of statements do appear to be (if not, as I previously asserted, the result of hallucinogens) meant as metaphor. Which is different from a tall tale, because those involve implausably exaggerated things like virgin births and miraculous resurrections.

I get your point, but your analogy is flawed.

[I_Like_Swordchucks]

Originally Posted by ZAKtheGeek

A virgin birth? A resurrection and ascension into "heaven?" I'm pretty sure Jesus is metaphorical.

Lets assume for one moment that Jesus was actually an incarnation of God. Is it possible, that a man-God could do those things?

I'm having to go with yes. You say its impossible because its impossible for YOU to do... but nobody's arguing that. If it was all totally possible, then Jesus wouldn't really be that special now would he?

I mean, when you place potential deity on someone, you can't really expect they are restricted to the same rules as the rest of us mere mortals.

And yes, I realize this isn't proof, but saying Jesus did things impossible for a normal person to do isn't really a counter either.


As to Revelation being metaphorical, the whole book is one guy's vision. Its not actual events or historical data or anything else. Its basically a record of one guy's vision. It has to be no more realistic than the dream I had last night where I flew and beat the hell out of Piccolo with a kamehameha.

The major difference is that this guy was supposed to be a prophet and his dream was supposed to be inspired by God, so the dream is meant to reflect future events.

See the difference? Record of a dream vs record of actual events. One's a metaphor which may or may not mean anything, the other is intended to be truth which may or may not be accurate.

However, as POS said, its not entirely impossible that all of Revelation was a drug induced hallucination. Realistically, its quite possible.

But won't you all be surprised if we end up getting attacked by demon locusts or horsemen or get crushed under 100 pound hailstones?

[Elminster_Amaur]

Originally Posted by Demetrius

Answering...

A swing and a miss! Note that Jesus was referring, once again, not to heaven, but to a relationship with God. If I'm wrong, Vampire Jesus should bite me and turn me into a Nospheratu.

See, you won't find it, because Jesus NEVER spoke on getting into heaven, except to say that it was difficult for a rich man to do so. In fact, he spoke on money more often than on heaven. But see, Jesus knew the truth, and knew that the only way to regain a union with the One was to have a relationship with the Spirit in life. How is that relationship gained? Well, Jesus gave a very good way to do that: prayer and worship, combined with meditation and fasting. If you'll note, that is the same process Buddhists/Taoists/Hindi/Muslims/Jews/Jedi(okay, maybe not that last one) use.

I will once again restate my position:
Heaven is NOT the goal. Reuniting with the Almighty/Tao/Nirvana is.

Edit:

Originally Posted by Swordchucks

The major difference is that this guy was supposed to be a prophet and his dream was supposed to be inspired by God, so the dream is meant to reflect future events.

Actually, I'm pretty sure that some of the events in Revelation had already happened at the time of the writing. The casting down of a third of the stars most likely represents the falling of the followers of the Prince of Lights. I think that was written about in the Old Testament as well. Unless that is also a future event which hadn't happened yet, in which case, I'm dumbfounded as to why Lucifer and his angels are still chillin' in heaven.

[I_Like_Swordchucks]

Originally Posted by Elminster_Amaur

Actually, I'm pretty sure that some of the events in Revelation had already happened at the time of the writing. The casting down of a third of the stars most likely represents the falling of the followers of the Prince of Lights. I think that was written about in the Old Testament as well. Unless that is also a future event which hadn't happened yet, in which case, I'm dumbfounded as to why Lucifer and his angels are still chillin' in heaven.

Maybe, but that really wasn't my main point. MOST of Revelation is intended to be prophetic, I'm sure you'll agree, and most of it is totally metaphorical as it is definitely a vision that is representative of events and not an historical telling of actual events.

[Elminster_Amaur]

Well, that's true, and I wasn't arguing that. I'm the one who brought up Revelations being metaphorical in the first place. I was just saying that I thought some of the events that were represented in the "vision" may have already occurred at time of writing.

[I_Like_Swordchucks]

Originally Posted by Elminster_Amaur

Well, that's true, and I wasn't arguing that. I'm the one who brought up Revelations being metaphorical in the first place. I was just saying that I thought some of the events that were represented in the "vision" may have already occurred at time of writing.

You might well be correct. The thing with metaphorical writings is that there are several possible interpretations. There are several good arguments you could make for events at that time, but there are also several for events in our time or even future events yet.

For instance, his references to the One-World government could be the Roman Empire, or it could be the United Nations, or it could be a government yet to come. Who can say for sure? Your interpretation is as good as any.

[ZAKtheGeek]

Originally Posted by I_Like_Swordchucks

Lets assume for one moment that Jesus was actually an incarnation of God. Is it possible, that a man-God could do those things?

I'm having to go with yes. You say its impossible because its impossible for YOU to do... but nobody's arguing that. If it was all totally possible, then Jesus wouldn't really be that special now would he?

I mean, when you place potential deity on someone, you can't really expect they are restricted to the same rules as the rest of us mere mortals.

And yes, I realize this isn't proof, but saying Jesus did things impossible for a normal person to do isn't really a counter either.

Oh, right, I forgot, he's divine. That makes it all much more plausible.

Okay, I guess I have to change my statement to, "A woman gives birth to an incarnation of the omnipotent creator of all things? I'm pretty sure Jesus is metaphorical."

[I_Like_Swordchucks]

Originally Posted by ZAKtheGeek

Oh, right, I forgot, he's divine. That makes it all much more plausible.

Well, yeah. It does. If he wasn't, it wouldn't be possible. However, you can't say that its impossible that Jesus wasn't divine, therefore it wasn't impossible that he could do these things. Improbable, maybe, but not impossible.

So going from impossible to improbable IS a rather large leap in plausibility.

But I'm just saying you can't use him doing inhuman things as proof that he's a metaphor because he'd have to be divine in order to do those things, when the possibility exists that he was indeed divine.

Even if we say its a 0.001% chance that Jesus was divine, thats an infinitely larger possibility than the 0% chance of those things happening if he wasn't divine.

[ZAKtheGeek]

I never said it was impossible. Nothing is impossible. Well... in actuality, anyway. I suppose there can be impossibilities when dealing with theoretical concepts.

That's why "improbable" requires further qualification, and why showing something not to be impossible proves next to nothing. Just to roll with the example, we don't know for sure that stars are giant gas balls lightyears away from this planet, it's just that all our observations indicate that to be the case. It's entirely possible that we've simply been mistaken.

Improbable, yes. But not impossible.

See what I mean? Remote enough possibilities aren't even worth considering. They tend toward impossibility, and that's quite good enough. I'm pretty sure this is an axiom of practical rational thought, too.

[Bob The Mercenary]

I've ripped through some confirmation books I have and I've found a couple verses that seem to point to belief in Jesus being the only way to heaven. Please don't rip me apart, like all other verses they are up for interpretation.

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. (Romans 3:23)

[L]et God be true, but every man a liar...( Romans 3:4)

Now, the way I've been taught, just one sin destroys you spiritually, so without faith in Jesus dying to nullify all sins, you're doomed. I read somewhere that it's kind of like court on Earth. No amount of good deeds is going to get you out of jailtime. (Well okay, getting out early for good behavior)

But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. (Isaiah 64:6)

I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. (Galatians 2:21)

...Christ died for the ungodly. (Romans 5:6)

This one I think seals it:

2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Again, don't slay me. I'm just quoting.