Concealed Weapons (or more specifically, handguns)

[Sesshoumaru]

Thats exactly how I feel about. Even if you don't agree with the whole "MOre Guns Less Crime" hypothesis, there is no credible evendence to suggest that liberalized concealed carry laws have a negative effect (although admitidly, there is some credible evidence suggesting that they don't have much of an effect on crime rates). And by negative effect I mean increasing crime or accident rates (this is really just common sense, seeing as how the people commiting most gun crimes, or who are most at risk of accidental injury/death are the same people who are most likely to be illegally carrying a gun anyway). So, at the very least, there isn't really anything to lose by enacting shall-issue. Defending yourself with a gun is widely accepted as teh most effective means of self-defense (in most cases, simply brandishing a gun is enough to stop an atatck, as the perpetrator typically flees at the sight of it; which has the unfortuante efect of putting other people at risk. A great example of this is that shortly after Florida enacted shall-issue, crime against tourists in marked rental cars skyrocketed, which lead to the state prohibiting the companies from clearly marking their vehicals). Also, licensing promotes safety by requiring training courses to be passed before a license can be issued (ok, not every state does this, but they should). Then theres the psycological benefits of knowing you have the means to defend yourself close to hand (although I can't speak for this personally, because I don't meet the age requirement for a permit in my state...yet), of course, other people might not feel as safe if they think every other guy they pass on the street is packing, but I'm sure they'll be able to deal with it eventually.

[Magus]

So you just think the laws as they are now are alright, or they should be less restrictive, or more, or what? What is your bottom-line thing, I'm getting a bit confused, because you say that they should have people pass a training course but you're against liberalized carry laws or whatever. Are you saying you're for some enforcement, just not as much as some of the zealots would have?

[Sesshoumaru]

Well I thought I was clear, but to be totally clear, I am very much for liberalizaing concealed carry laws. And yes, I support both requiring a permit, and having to pass a shooting profecientcy test before being able to acquire said permit. However, what I CANNOT stand is gun control groups making wild doom prophecies of how were going to have people shooting it out in checkout lines 'cause someone stole their spot (ok, thats a slight exageration, but not by much).

Also, I'm kinda confused by what you mean by zealots.

[Magus]

A zealot would be you know, a hardliner, either on the far "right" or far "left" of the issue, who actively campaigns for a position far removed from moderation.

So I was talking about in this case someone on the far "left" of the gun control issue, the kind of people who want to outright ban owning a handgun, or any gun, for anyone outside law enforcement (and who would prefer making normal policeman only capable of carrying tasers and nighsticks/truncheons in their daily job, only SWAT members allowed to use guns or even have access to them. I've heard quite a few say they want that to come into effect as well). Someone on the far "right" of the issue would want there to be no restrictions on handguns at all, no licensing, and no background checking, and no tracking.

Then, some on the far "left" go so far as you know, wanting to ban guns entirely and hunt down and destroy them all or whatever, but those people are like that with everything related to violence, not really specifically the gun control issue, so refer to the paragraph above for what I think a "gun-issue" zealot is.

[Sesshoumaru]

Well it seems to me that there are quite a few more anti-gun zealots than pro-gun zealots then, because the only groups I know of that call for completely unrestricted access are the radical militia groups (which are quite small, comparatively), even the Gun Owner's Asscioation of America (easily the most hardliner group, or at least pretty close to the most hardliner) isn't against prohibiting violent felons and the mentally from owning guns (well, not that I know of anyway), but every anti-gun group I know of has publily admitted to the ultimate goal of banning all 'non-sporting' firearms (take Handgun Control Inc, now known as the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence; they frequently said they weren't against 'keeping guns out of th wrong hands,' but as early as 1976, director Nelson Shields stated in an interview with The New Yorker that "Our ultimate goal- total control of handguns in the US- is going to take time...the final problem is to make possession of all handguns, and all handgun ammuniation- except for the military, police, licensed security guards, licensed sporting clubs, and licensed collectors- totally illegal" (empahsis was added).

Oh, and here's a great article from Jews For the Preservation of Firearms Ownership (although its not directly related to concealed carry, but gun control in general, its still very good), http://www.jpfo.org/js-saveyou.htm.

*Found a great abcNEWS clip from 2003 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RR9RN_iSKtg . Its also about guns in general, but it mentions concealed carry so I guess its kinda on topic.

**A more recent article by the same guy about the VA shooting, and a similar shooting in a nearby lawschool in 2002 that was stopped when two students retrieved handguns from their cars and forcibly disarmed the shooter. http://abcnews.go.com/2020/story?id=3083618&page=1

***Forgot to mention this earlier, but for those of you who like anecdotal stories (myself for example), I highly recommend the NRA's Armed Citizen archieve, which collects various newspaper stories of defensive gun use: http://www.nraila.org/ArmedCitizen/Default.aspx

[Mannix]

This article also seems relvent to the discussion: Spate of gun-crimes in Japan despite tough gun control laws.

[Sky Warrior Bob]

I haven't been following this thread, but I thought I'd point out this story that I've just heard about. (Short version, there's a blind man going around picking up concealed weapons permits in every state he can, he's already scored ones in North Dakota & Utah. And no, he isn't anti-gun, and trying to prove how easy it is to get a license, apparently, he just likes his guns.)

SWB

[Sesshoumaru]

Well he does have a point that low-powered hollowpoints substantially decrease the risk of collataral damage. Although I am a bit curious as to how he passed the range proficency test.

*'Cause everyone likes satire, enjoy www.handguncontrol.net/why_gun_control_works.htm
** Some more evidence about the malicious agenda the mainstreme media has against guns http://www.kc3.com/self_defense/keepsecret.htm
***Another media/bias article by the same site http://www.kc3.com/self_defense/gruesome.htm
****A story about a couple thugs who tried to rob a pair of ex-special forces guys...with BB guns (unfortunately for one robber, who did not survive the attempt, the intended victims were not aware that the guns were fake before they opened fire with their own, very real weapons) http://www.kc3.com/self_defense/failure.htm
*****SOme evidence about how acting passive isn't really the best choice. A clerk was shot after handing over the money http://www.kc3.com/carolee_hewitt.htm

[shdwtch]

morning all

[Meister]

Morning shdwtch. You very obviously did not read the rules, so please go and do so now.