Fullmetal Alchemist

[ZAKtheGeek]

Originally Posted by Kyanbu The Legend

How does it not make sense if you don't mind me asking? I have yet to see any error with characters surviving in believable ways for that universe's rules. And I'm up to Chapter 107.

Well, I sarcastically implied my reasoning already. Basically, I don't believe Hawkeye is talented enough to defend herself from such an attack, not to mention she's got a big bloody wound that now seems to be completely ignored. Bullet-dodging has been shown to be possible, to boot, though it seems like that shouldn't even matter much, given that no one even has time to get any alchemy off.

Originally Posted by Lithp

Here's what I don't get about the "main character dying just makes sense" argument: It seems to forget that people DO survive events like wars. It's not "unbelievable" if they survive even improbable events. We might not be satisfied with minor characters, but really, applying context, they don't KNOW they're major or minor characters. Granted, the 50 million Amestrians was a stretch, but how would you come back from that?

That being said, coming close to dying demonstrates that it can & will happen, especially in a series that has killed off some main names. Hell, just going by your definition, Hughes totally counts.

Sure, that counts. But that's, like, the only example.

I don't discount them dying at the end of the story as "not counting," either.

I see what you mean with the "damned if you do, damned if you don't" sort of scenario. Let's just take the stereotypical example of a tyrannical empire and the story of some scrappy rebel. This rebel gets pretty far in his attack on the empire but then he's overwhelmed by its massive power and killed. Well, that's a pretty crappy story. Alternatively, he doesn't die, and eventually completes his rebellion and brings down the empire. But he's just a lone rebel, and the empire's so powerful! Well, it had to happen, or else the story was pointless.

Maybe, but that's the author's fault. If you make a villain overly powerful, it doesn't give license for the plot to ignore that power for the sake of the hero's victory. They're clearly just winning because they're the "force of good" and the one you're supposed to be rooting for; I know the whole time they'll win, but the reason I stay aboard is precisely because the villain is so powerful and I'd like to know how they could possibly lose. Contradicting their earlier depictions of power basically means the whole hook of the story was a big lie; its only appeal then is the thematic element, which I personally rarely give a shit about, especially if it's something as boring as "tyranny is bad" (and it might not be, I'm just saying). In fact, even the "good lesson" being taught is watered down, because the conclusion is powered by sheer illogic. You can't take down a powerful evil solely by virtue of being good. It just doesn't work that way. That's a lousy lesson.

tl;dr oftentimes the "message" overpowers and sort of logic and I think that's bullshit because the logical parts are the primary appeal for me.

[Lithp]

That's why I liked Ichigo vs. Ulquiorra in Bleach. Ichigo was clearly outmatched. He couldn't even hurt Ulquiorra, but he kept on fighting. Ulquiorra tried to convince him that this was futile & to give up, even blowing away the majority of his reitsu in a single blast. Despite this, Ichigo kept fighting, until he was eventually beaten to a pulp by Ulquiorra & killed. Even knowing what happened afterwards, that's still a pretty powerful scene. It's like the ultimate ragtag resistance goes wrong type scenario.

But see, I tend to think that whether or not you can kill off the main character depends on how you set it up. If you do it in a way that still has an emotionally satisfying ending, it should be fine. However, like I said, I think that's something you have to be preparing for basically the entire story. For example, there would have to be some significant instances of pessimism in Bleach or FMA for you to accept Aizen & Father winning, even at the expense of such well-developed characters.

So no, I am by no means saying that you can't kill a main character off earlier & make it work. I'm just saying, where do you draw the line? What measure is a main character? How many do you have to kill off? Et cetera.

[ZAKtheGeek]

"Main character" aren't even my words. I wrote "protagonist," and even there it was a slightly reckless shorthand, because a protagonist is usually the character with the thematically inevitably victory as well as the logically probable loss. All I'm's sayin' is, it should make sense who wins at stuff.

[Lithp]

Protagonists are main characters.

Anywho, I again have to note that improbable victories don't "not make sense," as they happen IRL as well.

[ZAKtheGeek]

Well, a freak accident doesn't tend to make for a compelling resolution. And, if it happens repeatedly, then it just becomes a contrivance.

And it's not always just "unlikely." Like there's this ability but for some unexplained reason it doesn't get used. I don't want to call that "impossible," so what I say is just that it doesn't make sense. Or, at least, that it's unsatisfying, because I was looking forward to seeing it be circumvented somehow, not just conveniently ignored.

[Lithp]

I think I can see what you're saying. Would these count as examples?

FMA: Father can transmute without moving, does not have human composition, is a big-ass Philosophers Stone, & recently ate God. The question on everyone's mind was, "How are they going to beat him?" To be fair, we did get some interesting strategies from Hohenheim & Scar, but ultimately, they seem to be relying on Phlebotinum Overload, just letting him absorb too much power & explode.

FFVI: Kefka, upon acheiving godhood, was shown to be able to negate magic. At the end of the game, he never uses any such ability.

FFVII: Sephiroth keeps losing to Cloud, despite being much stronger. This is explained as being mostly a fluke.

[ZAKtheGeek]

Originally Posted by Lithp

I think I can see what you're saying. Would these count as examples?

FMA: Father can transmute without moving, does not have human composition, is a big-ass Philosophers Stone, & recently ate God. The question on everyone's mind was, "How are they going to beat him?" To be fair, we did get some interesting strategies from Hohenheim & Scar, but ultimately, they seem to be relying on Phlebotinum Overload, just letting him absorb too much power & explode.

FFVI: Kefka, upon acheiving godhood, was shown to be able to negate magic. At the end of the game, he never uses any such ability.

FFVII: Sephiroth keeps losing to Cloud, despite being much stronger. This is explained as being mostly a fluke.

Sure. The first is actually the worst example, I'd say. I mean, Van Hohenheim is composed of almost as much bullshit as Homunculus himself, so in my eyes, they pretty much have free reign to make either of them do whatever they want and I can't really complain about it. If they invoked Hohenheim's powers more on the "good guy side," I'd really have a lot less to say, I think.

[Lithp]

Well, like I said, they did neutralize his alchemy blocking ability & come up with a countermeasure for the national transmutation circle, but on the other hand, I was actually looking for them to find some kind of weakness(es) of Father's & take advantage of it/them. On the plus side, at least it wasn't "he dissolves in light," like I thought she was going to do. So, yeah, the other 2 would be better examples, this one's just kind of half-&-half.

On a slight tangent, though, I think that Father's Stone is probably much bigger than Hohenheim's at this point, since he keeps making them.

(That's so hilariously innuendo-ish. Also, I wish there was a spoiler tag button.)

[ZAKtheGeek]

Originally Posted by Lithp

On a slight tangent, though, I think that Father's Stone is probably much bigger than Hohenheim's at this point, since he keeps making them.

(That's so hilariously innuendo-ish. Also, I wish there was a spoiler tag button.)

Well, he keeps using them, too. I can only imagine how much was wasted on that useless mannequin army. And the homunculus brigade too, I suppose, although at least that one seems like a good investment.

[Lithp]

To be fair, the army was experimental. I'm sure they would be much more of a threat if they were like the similar concept of zombie soldiers that was used in Conqueror of Shamballa.