We will now discuss Naruto is a spoilery manner.

[Funka Genocide]

Do you even know the requisite force necessary to rupture vital human organs?

Here's a hint, its less than the force required to send someone spiraling several dozen yards into the air.

Point being: organs don't work like they should in the Naruto-verse, and this is well established by the massive beatings many characters manage to survive.

You're nitpicking a minor facet of fantastical physiology in an attempt to be too cool for school, so to speak. It's a fucking shonen manga, if you were that cool you wouldn't know how to pronounce the title.

[Lithp]

Now stop and think to yourself what does this all mean put together.

That stories don't lack logic, they just may have slightly different variables. So?

On top of all that what isn't explicitly clear about the fact that the gates specifically allow you to ignore your physical limits whatever they might be.

There certainly is the possibility that the dub fucked up, yes.

None of Naruto's internal logic was broken.

Naruto's internal logic was broken when Kishimoto decided that the Sharingan could suddenly see Chakra & cast Genjutsu.

Guy hit him so hard the water somewhat supported his weight thus the semisolid comment.

I see. It was my impression that the water wasn't that deep. Or maybe it's an effect of the technique used to stand on it. But yeah, I see where you're going with that.

Point being: organs don't work like they should in the Naruto-verse, and this is well established by the massive beatings many characters manage to survive.

My argument was only made to dispel the notion that there is no logic in a story just because it's fiction. This point proves nothing because, for starters, I never said that I was okay with that to begin with. Therefore, there is no demonstrated contradiction in what I'm saying.

Yes, some things are certainly stretched. How much stretching a person can handle is his or her suspension of disbelief.

You're nitpicking a minor facet of fantastical physiology in an attempt to be too cool for school, so to speak. It's a fucking shonen manga, if you were that cool you wouldn't know how to pronounce the title.

What you're doing is attributing motives to me that are not there.

Let me ask you something: If the claim that there "is no logic in a fantasy story" is true, & that invalidates my complaints about Naruto, then what is the justification for the Bleach thread? Or the old thread about the Avatar movie.

According to that line of logic, there is nothing wrong with those stories. They are fantasy, so they do not need to be held to logic, which means there can't be any such thing as a bad plot device in either of them.

[Funka Genocide]

The coolest people on the internet are always the people who explain simplistic ideas ad-nauseum in a manner suggesting the general audience doesn't quite understand their complexity.

Everyone understands the concept of suspension of disbelief, we can move on now I think.

You seem to be contradicting yourself in a roundabout manner by emphasizing an internally consistent logic to fantasy fiction while pointing out the erroneous (from a realistic perspective) nature of certain physiological foibles present in this particular fantasy. It kind of feels like a classic strawman where you hold up such statements as "muscles can't do that shit, period" against these rather unnecessary dissertations on the primacy of suspension of disbelief.

In short I think you're just going around in smug little circles to no apparent end.

[Arcanum]

Naruto's internal logic was broken when Kishimoto decided that the Sharingan could suddenly see Chakra & cast Genjutsu.

The Sharingan didn't "suddenly" become able to see Chakra and cast Genjutsu. It was revealed that advanced forms of the Sharingan can do that. It was always clear that the Sharingan was an eye technique that could constantly evolve and grow stronger. That it evolves to the point where it starts to encompass other eye techniques' abilities as well is not really surprising, especially since the Byakugan by comparison has always been static in terms of what it does. Also, all eye techniques stem from the same original technique, the Rinnegan, so it is even less surprising that an eye technique that can evolve gains abilities similar to other eye techniques. In fact, the Sharingan's ability to constantly become stronger is one of the reasons (if not the reason) that the higher ups decided the Uchiha were too dangerous to keep around.

So no, Naruto's internal logic has not been broken by this, Naruto is currently better than Bleach, and Sithdarth's arguments continuously beat yours.

But that's just my two cents.

edit -- I also agree with Funka (Ninja bastard). And it's not just in this thread that you do this either, you argue pointlessly in other threads as well. To be honest it's getting tiresome.

[Sithdarth]

Naruto's internal logic was broken when Kishimoto decided that the Sharingan could suddenly see Chakra & cast Genjutsu.

Two rules to any fantasy genre:

1) Great authors never provide perfect information. All expositions should be taken with a grain of salt. When actions contradict an explanation that generally indicates a case of imperfect exposition which contributes to making the work realistic. After all you rarely get perfect information in real life. When a contradiction occurs you should look for foreshadowing of it. If the writer is any good it exists somewhere though sometimes they forget.

2) The author is the final arbiter of the internal logic of the story. A good one will foreshadow rules that seem to apply might not always apply or might not apply to everyone. Beyond that of course there is the fact that there are exceptions to every rule and all fantasy genres are predicated on the fact that heroes defy rules and expectations.

That stories don't lack logic, they just may have slightly different variables. So?

So one of those variables happens to be human physiology.

There certainly is the possibility that the dub fucked up, yes.

Yeah and maybe grass is actually blue we just screwed up when we called it green.

I see. It was my impression that the water wasn't that deep.

Before that both of them sunk fully into it and neither one seemed to move any closer to shore.

Let me ask you something: If the claim that there "is no logic in a fantasy story" is true, & that invalidates my complaints about Naruto, then what is the justification for the Bleach thread? Or the old thread about the Avatar movie.

According to that line of logic, there is nothing wrong with those stories. They are fantasy, so they do not need to be held to logic, which means there can't be any such thing as a bad plot device in either of them.

The only person making the no logic point Kyanbu. As far as I can tell Funka and I are attempting to get you to realize that the underlying axioms that control the Universe could be substantially different. You can't assume things like physiology operating under the same rules as in our reality. Obviously some parts of the physiology carry over but that doesn't mean other portions won't seem entirely illogical to us in terms of our reality but be fully logical in the fantasy because it is a fantasy.

[Lithp]

Alright, let me just see if I can make some sense out of this clusterfuck:

So there are some inconsistencies in my argument. Fine, I'll admit this. How much of Naruto's logic is currently being followed is a difficult thing to determine, if we're going to start with things like whether or not human evolution would have occurred differently.

At the very least, we have shown that logic is applicable to a fantasy story, which is what I wanted to do to begin with. Therefore, if we accept that there is reason to believe that Naruto is violating its own logic, then my complaints are sensible.

If I think that Bleach is maintaining its story's consistency better than Naruto, then it also follows that I would think that Bleach is a better story.

About my "trying to be too cool," frankly, that's just nonsense. I used to like Naruto, only starting to become discontent around the time Pain died. It just built from there. If someone wants to believe that I have an ulterior motive, that's their prerogative, but I certainly can't be expected to disprove it.

[Sithdarth]

if we're going to start with things like whether or not human evolution would have occurred differently.

This is a very big flaw in your logic. In a fantasy setting there is no reason to believe any evolution happened at all. For all we know the Naruto Earth is flat and there is no such thing as space. You can bring nothing to bear on the internal logic of a fantasy setting except the events in the setting and the generic methods of logic. As hard as it is you have to drop all preconceptions about how reality should work and derive the rules of the world from the ground up. Luckily writers tend to have a lot in common and a lot of the most basic elements of fantasy settings translate to basically all other fantasy settings. There are general sort of fuzzy rules that tend to apply to any fantasy setting which are a good place to start when trying to reconstruct the rules of reality for a new setting you have just encountered. There is a reason why the majority of the beginning of any story is setting and exposition. You have to tell your readers at least partially how to construct the rules of your reality and a good writer will keep some hidden for suspense later.

[Lithp]

Alright, then substitute that for the more general "evolution," IE change over time.

That's exactly what I mean, though. Those are a lot of assumptions. So, okay, I will grant that I can't say 100% for certain anything about any of those.

However, the very fact that they are assumptions leaves room for interpretation. That would mean that I at least have some reason to believe that the logic is being violated.

I would think that is a reasonable position, yes?

[Sithdarth]

I would think that is a reasonable position, yes?

Not really. For this reason:

However, the very fact that they are assumptions leaves room for interpretation. That would mean that I at least have some reason to believe that the logic is being violated.

Logic that is not absolute cannot be violated. If you can't be sure of your assumptions you cannot be sure of the logical results derived from those assumptions. Any apparent violation is just as likely (probably more likely) to be your fault. Truly logical and unbiased analysis requires you to with hold any and all conclusions in that situation and wait for more information with which to test your assumptions.

We could also get into Godel and how no logical system can be both complete and consistent. As such any realistically constructed alternate reality should have contradictions and/or unprovable statements or rather their existence doesn't run counter to suspension of belief.

This is neither here nor there though. The more I think about this chapter the more I like it for its shear awesome. I can totally appreciate it for its purely aesthetic awesomeness.

[IHateMakingNames]

Here is where this all went wrong.

Originally Posted by Lithp

It was said, way back in the beginning, that "no matter how hard you train, you can't strengthen your internal organs." The implication being that physical limits were still limits, training notwithstanding. That was just thrown right out the window.

No. This implies that if you punch a ninja's liver directly, it's just like punching a normal person's liver. You can toughen up the body, but skipping that fleshy shield works.

Every other aspect of the manga implies that physical limits are out the window, specifically Rock Lee, and now Guy.

Then you guys started arguing about things that aren't an issue because of that.