[WAR] so let's talk about this mosque in New York

[Osterbaum]

Originally Posted by POS

Well gosh, I'm sooooooooooo sorry that your gentle sensibilities are offended by our having people who actually want us to live up to the standards preached by our commercialized nationalism.

And I'm even more sorry to be one of them.

Yes, I am very sorry aswell.

[POS Industries]

But no seriously when did the United States piss in your cornflakes?

[Archbio]

When did they not?

Christianity, Islam, and Judaism all have a bit in common.

Abraham does get around.

[Osterbaum]

While there is a huge list about atrocities etc. committed by the US goverment I could point out here, while very much valid points, I wont metion them further. Because the US isn't the only country to have done stupid/evil shit and you propably wont be the last. That's not specifically what's bothering me here. What gets to me is the attitude of Greatest Country in the World. It's so ultranationalistic, so arrogant and it's such bullshit. There is more, but I find it suprisingly hard to explain. For instance, if my country displayed the same level of nationalism-craze, flags everywhere, people always quoting Freedom and Liberty as something only we truly have etc, I would fucking hate it here (even more than I already do). I would be embarrassed.

[POS Industries]

Originally Posted by Archbio

When did they not?

I swear, officer, we never touched Finland! Neither dorsal nor ventral!

Originally Posted by Osterbaum

What gets to me is the attitude of Greatest Country in the World. It's so ultranationalistic, so arrogant and it's such bullshit. There is more, but I find it suprisingly hard to explain. For instance, if my country displayed the same level of nationalism-craze, flags everywhere, people always quoting Freedom and Liberty as something only we truly have etc, I would fucking hate it here (even more than I already do). I would be embarrassed.

Yeah, I don't like Republicans, either. But thanks for characterizing an entire nation by a caricature you pieced together from news reports from a quarter of the globe away. Thanks for putting us alone with the whole "Greatest Country in the World™" shtick despite it being a hallmark of every country--Finland included--since the dawn of time. That's pretty damn cool.

I mean, of course America isn't the best country in the world. Hell, Canada's way better than us at the moment, and have you seen those guys? I've watched "Corner Gas," I know what it's like up there! But sometimes it's nice to get together and rally around the home team, you know? It's not like you guys don't do it, either. From what I've read, Finland's had the classic "nationalism through cultural homogeneity" deal going since the 19th century, at the latest, which hasn't made it easy for any number of Sami, Roma, Chileans, Vietnamese, or Somalis that have tried to make a life for themselves within your borders.

But that might just be a caricature pieced together from news reports from a quarter of the globe away and not a fair assessment of Finland as a whole.

[Archbio]

Originally Posted by RobinStarwing

I am just saying that the man behind it should of thought a bit more about the possible public response to the building.

It seems to me that you're saying a little more than that: you're saying that he should have thought a bit more about it, and then decided against the community center idea.

Because after all maybe they did think about the public response a lot. All you have to go on regarding how much they thought about it is the fact that they went ahead with the project.

Hey, maybe they just didn't factor in the politicos who've created an issue out of this.

Originally Posted by POS

Thanks for putting us alone with the whole "Greatest Country in the World™" shtick despite it being a hallmark of every country--Finland included--since the dawn of time.

Maybe it's more of a question of a the "Only Great Country in the World" vibe, rather than of the "Greatest Country in the World."

This seems to be something that you feel strongly about, but I don't there's any reason to take it as something that's attributed to every single citizen of the United States. It's a peculiar tone of political discourse.

"Some of my best friends are from the United States."

Edit: Jean Chrétien did once say (in French, but this is an accurate translated paraphrase(!)) : "Canada is the most best [sic] country in the world." Nationalistic boasting is universal, that is true.

[POS Industries]

Originally Posted by Archbio

Maybe it's more of a question of a the "Only Great Country in the World" vibe, rather than of the "Greatest Country in the World."

That's not really one we use, though. Of course, once again, there are Republicans and they totally say stupid shit like that, but they don't count because they're people that are so dumb they say stupid shit like that. You know, like they say Brits and Canadians dying by the hundreds in hospital waiting rooms due to their embracing universal healthcare, etc. despite mostly glowing reports of such systems from the people who actually live in those countries. Or that all muslims are behind 9/11. But everybody has idiots like that.

Like, right now, we apparently have a majority (according to polls) of Americans who are being wrong and dumb about this whole Park51 thing, and that sucks, which pisses off the apparent minority (according to these oh-so-infallible polls) that aren't being wrong and dumb because the same people that like to talk big about how fuckawesome we are for these things our country is supposed to have are all suddenly trying to do the exact opposite of those awesome things.

I just think it's bullshit to make a big giant fuss about how it's so disgusting that a guy used the phrase "greatest country in the world" once in an article where, aside from a throwaway bit of nationalistic rhetoric, he was totally right about why Americans were being fucking wrong and dumb.

This seems to be something that you feel strongly about, but I don't there's any reason to take it as something that's attributed to every single citizen of the United States. It's a peculiar tone of political discourse.

You're right, I'm probably taking it a little more personally than I should. It just struck me as something of a bizarre overreaction to something inconsequential.

[Osterbaum]

Yeah, I don't like Republicans, either. But thanks for characterizing an entire nation by a caricature you pieced together from news reports from a quarter of the globe away.

I am well aware of what the caricature includes and knowledgeable enough to know not all Americans fit any of the common stereotypes about them, the one being discussed included.

Thanks for putting us alone with the whole "Greatest Country in the World™" shtick despite it being a hallmark of every country--Finland included--since the dawn of time. That's pretty damn cool.

Nationalism has been (and often still is) the hallmark of most countries. The whole "Greatest Country in the World" -thing not so much. Don't get me wrong, people who believed their country to be the greatest certainly have existed and still exist, but to my knowledge the US is the only country to turn it in to a national ideology and kept doing that to a certain extent all the way till today. Also it's the little things, like American flags everywhere, pledge of alliegance, God bless America etc. Those you'd never find in Finland, for example. Before you comment on it, it doesn't particularily matter to what extent and by how many people this is done presently, the fact these things are a topic in todays world at all is enough for a foreigner like me to note the difference between the US and my home county(ies).

But sometimes it's nice to get together and rally around the home team, you know?

Hey I can definitely understand nationalism and that feeling you get for example after winning a hugely important sports event etc., I just don't particularily like it.

It's not like you guys don't do it, either. From what I've read, Finland's had the classic "nationalism through cultural homogeneity" deal going since the 19th century, at the latest...

The situation in Finland in the 19th century could be compared to, while stripping it down to it's most simple components, the US' desire to create a national identity and one that is sufficiently opposed (that is, different) to the British. Except in our case replace the British Empire with the Russian Empire. So what you are saying certainly happened. Why it didn't come out as racism then is propably in large part due to the fact that there weren't many foreigners and because Russia was the one enemy everyone could unite against.

...which hasn't made it easy for any number of Sami, Roma, Chileans, Vietnamese, or Somalis that have tried to make a life for themselves within your borders.

Don't even get me started on the problems we have in Finland and why I think this country is largely populated by ignorant assholes. But where I see the difference here to what I was saying about the US, is that this sentiment of racism and the problems we have here doesn't come from über nationalism, atleast not just that. What I mean is, that while we have many of the same problems and are (atleast capable) of being equally stupid and assholish (towards foreigners) as anyone else, but even so I do not encounter the kind of nationalism we're talking about almost at all.

Also, Chileans and Vietnamese? Maybe that was too much before "my time" for me to realize the extent of any possible problems, but Chileans and Vietnamese don't raise any biggot alarms as far as I know. Sami, Roma and Somalis though, unfortunately, yes. Well the Sami less; with them it's a much more deep rooted and older problem and one that isn't as severe anymore today. But still, fuck my goverment and fuck many of the people who live in this country.

e:

I just think it's bullshit to make a big giant fuss about how it's so disgusting that a guy used the phrase "greatest country in the world" once in an article where, aside from a throwaway bit of nationalistic rhetoric, he was totally right about why Americans were being fucking wrong and dumb.

I would never run in to a phrase describing Finland as "The Greatest Country in the World" in a any fashion anywhere in Finland, except for a FARFARFAR right publication. We're talking racist as fuck, right-wing nutjobs. Even the slightly less nutjob right-wingers don't claim Finland as THE Greatest.

e2: What Smarty said below.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

The difference is that the Republicans are a major political party whereas the nationalistic rightwingers are in general more of a minor trend in other countries. And American nationalism has large consequences for the rest of the world when it is used to justify wars to "protect democracy" and the like. Sure other countries have people that would do this but in the US they have both the power within the country to do this and the military force to also achieve it.
And there is certainly unique historical dimensions to American nationalism as a modern country, born in a revolution that fetishised the idea of being a different country, a better country. It is a part of the founding myth of the country in a way that is different to other places.
While all countries have ridiculous nationalism it does seem stronger and more entrenched in America and there are historical reasons for that. It was a big part of the major historical trend of "American exceptionalism" where America was different to other countries and experienced things differentely, due to its age, its unique circumstances of creation, its physical isolation from other major powers and its immense resources.

Also shit dawg, yo dudes have a pledge you say and everything. We'd laugh that shit out sucka. And you loves your flag super freestyles.

[Krylo]

Well, depending on how you define it, the USA kind of IS the greatest country since the Cold War.


Edit: To save time of people going to read that: Only Superpower Left.