Another Big Big Thread of Religious Discussion

[Azisien]

I stuck with universe and reality because those would probably make people scratch their heads in confusion less than if I had used a term like M-brane.

[Ugainius]

Sorry but I'm going to have to ask for a brief explanation of the M-theory, if that is at all possible.

[Sithdarth]

Here it is not that its really that much of a theory currently. Its more of a general idea of what the theory should look like and some basic qualitative statements on what that would mean physically.

[Fifthfiend]

Originally Posted by Demetrius

I'd like to throw out a new stance to argue from; GOD exists. Prove to me that he doesn't.

Spare me any silly jabs you would have at supposing that this is true and prove to me that it is not.

Easy.

I know there isn't a God.

Now, prove to me that I don't.

[Bob The Mercenary]

I didn't really want to say this, because the last time I introduced personal problems into a thread it got closed. But, if I didn't believe that a God existed or that I had a purpose being here, I honestly would have committed suicide by now. I've had plenty of reason and all the opportunity in the world to do it, but because I think there is some divine purpose behind everything that happens, good or bad, and that I would end up in hell if I did go through with it, I abstain from the idea. If I am deluding myself, fine, but I owe my life to that delusion.

This isn't really meant as an argument so much as a reason why I believe.

[POS Industries]

Originally Posted by Fifthfiend

How is the existence of God subjective?

What SpacePope said, basically. You can't objectively argue that the feeling is the existence of a deity because the feeling itself is a subjective experience, much like trying to objectively prove that a hamburger is delicious because you can only say that it is from your own subjective experience.

But hamburgers are delicious, and I believe this with every fiber of my being.

I never suggested it wasn't.

I never suggested I was talking about you, Mr. Vanitypants.

[Serenity]

Originally Posted by TheSpacePope

This is what it actually says.
This is tantamount to "sticks and stones may break my bones," it says absoulutely nothing about not making your life better.
You misrepresent what they were trying to say.

What he said is that you will be rewarded in heaven for going through shit now. The logical conclusion is that, since heaven is infinite, I should go through as much shit as possible now to get the good stuff in heaven.

Originally Posted by TheSpacePope

The bolded: this is jesus saying that he has not come to change our way of life, but to make it better.

What definition of "make it better" doesn't include changing it?

Originally Posted by TheSpacePope

the underlined: Notice that he does not say that you are eternally dammed for breaking these commandments, you are simply the least in heaven, which to me says that you are still in heaven, but your stature is reduced.

Still a punishment.

Originally Posted by TheSpacePope

More of a forewarning against gluttony and vanity I'd say. It does not tell you not to eat, just not to worry.
Same deal here.

Yeah, don't worry about getting food because God will provide, and when he doesn't, then what? Lots of people starve to death every day, and I'm sure some of them were Christians. Where was God for them?

[ZAKtheGeek]

Originally Posted by POS Industries

You can't objectively argue that the feeling is the existence of a deity because the feeling itself is a subjective experience, much like trying to objectively prove that a hamburger is delicious because you can only say that it is from your own subjective experience.

I don't know if you realize this, but everything is based on subjective experience. When I see a fire die out because there's water falling on it, it's a subjective experience, but I can still use it to further the objective claim that water smothers flames. Whereas, if I think that it looks really cool when this happens, that contributes nothing to any objective claim because it's assigning a totally subjective property. Like deliciousness. Unlike existence.

So no, the fact that it's based on a subjective experience isn't why arguing for a god based on a feeling is fallacious.

I'd say it's probably because a feeling is based on something internal, whereas a god would be external (to the whole universe, really). How could you possibly draw a conclusion about something external based on a sensation that in no way involves external factors?

Given, I'm making some assumptions here that could totally be wrong. It might help if somebody could be less than completely fucking vague to the point of almost saying nothing of meaning at all about this whole "I feel God" deal.

[POS Industries]

Originally Posted by Serenity

What he said is that you will be rewarded in heaven for going through shit now. The logical conclusion is that, since heaven is infinite, I should go through as much shit as possible now to get the good stuff in heaven.

Not that I put too much stock in biblical texts, but I think you're reading it wrong. The statement is that, should you be persecuted for following Jesus and still remain loyal to him, it'll work out well for you in the the end.

Yeah, don't worry about getting food because God will provide, and when he doesn't, then what? Lots of people starve to death every day, and I'm sure some of them were Christians. Where was God for them?

Once again, I believe this is a misinterpretation (and a complete disregard for everything SpacePope said). The verses in question appear to be more about avoiding gluttony and vanity than about worrying about not actually having food, water, or clothes at all. For instance, "Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes?" suggests that being content with having what you need is better than desiring more that you don't need.

[TheSpacePope]

I didn't really want to say this, because the last time I introduced personal problems into a thread it got closed. But, if I didn't believe that a God existed or that I had a purpose being here, I honestly would have committed suicide by now. I've had plenty of reason and all the opportunity in the world to do it, but because I think there is some divine purpose behind everything that happens, good or bad, and that I would end up in hell if I did go through with it, I abstain from the idea. If I am deluding myself, fine, but I owe my life to that delusion.

And actually Bob, for people like you, religion is a beautiful experience. You and I have both had intersections with an unseen force, and by all accounts, it's the same story. A small nagging voice that cried out over and over, don't do it.
I know exactly where you are coming from.
But my belief hinges on the "good god" and that the bible is merely a storybook of fables, meant to teach me (somewhat) how to live, while being vague enough for me to fill in my own gaps.

POS's post

Thank you friend, I see that I am not blind after all.