Fullmetal Alchemist - Page 7

phil_ · 05-21-2010, 11:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lithp

I wish there was a spoiler tag button.

You could just type [ss] instead of [spoiler]. It's not quite the same, but it'll help.

Full! Metal! Alchemist!

Fullmetal Alchemist.

bluestarultor · 05-21-2010, 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lithp

Also, I wish there was a spoiler tag button.

There is.

->

Unless you're using the Quick Reply at the bottom of the page.

Lithp · 05-22-2010, 11:31 AM

I am using the quick reply at the bottom of the page. Also, I don't entirely like the direction the manga chose to go for its final battle.

Kim · 05-23-2010, 05:50 PM

Latest ep was good. Didn't feel like as much was accomplished in this episode as in much of the other recent ones, but it was still quite enjoyable. We've got six episodes or so left? Not sure if they can conclude the plot in that amount of time but I wish them luck.

Magus · 05-24-2010, 01:18 PM

On protagonists: if you kill your "main character" off at the beginning of the second book, I am going to come out and say that he is not the protagonist of that particular book. I'm sure he was the protagonist of the first one but he is not going to be the protagonist of the second by dint of the fact that he's barely in it. Unless it's a cool plot device where some seemingly insignificant thing that he did in the first few chapters before dying ends up saving the day at the end, that is always cool. Not sure if he'd still be the "main character" but he'd definitely be one of the most important secondary characters. Unfortunately this usually leads to people saying it was Deus Ex Machina because you remove the ending of the conflict from the hands of the protagonist.

Killing off the main character at the beginning of the second book brings up interesting questions, though, such as "who is the main character of the series?" At this point, I guess we'd have to say there is more than one. It still seems like the category of "main character" or "protagonist" should be kept to as few characters as possible for the sake of organization and relevance.

On FMA:

Father's stone is less than Hohenheim's at this point, due to all the stuff he's been doing, that is why Father looked older than Hohenheim. It doesn't really make sense that that is the fact, of course, but that's my reasoning for why Father had a more wrinkled face.

The impression given however is that 500,000 souls is a ridiculously large amount and you can basically do infinite amounts of things over the course of several centuries and you'll still only use up like 10,000 of them, though.

In any case, the current strategy of wearing down Father's shell by making him use power in worthless attacks made much more realistic sense than tackling him head on. Huge epic battle where they traded blows wouldn't have made more sense. Obviously there are very good "coincidences" where they survive Father's fruitless attacks (everyone surviving the energy beam at the end of Chapter 106, for example), but the overall strategy makes way more sense than an actual fight.

Would an actual fight be more satisfying? Probably. I don't think you can say what the author is doing is less realistic though.

Also Kefka never negated magic. He stood in the center of the balanced statues when Gestahl attacked him and supposedly they absorbed the magic directed at Kefka. It didn't really have anything to do with Kefka's later achievement of god power from putting them out of balance and absorbing the energy.

Lithp · 05-25-2010, 09:22 PM

Father: I think people look way too deeply into the fact that he looks older. The fact is that the main difference between Hohenheim's face & Father's is that Father is always scowling. If you're doing that all of the time, of course you're going to look a bit different. Greed does say he's gotten older, but that was probably just a taunt &, technically, he is older, regardless of whether or not he physically ages. But, anyway, we haven't been told that his stone is smaller since he keeps making more, I'd say it's probably bigger. Although really, it's anyone's guess.

Strategy: Except for the question of why Father doesn't just disintegrate them, it does make sense. I have 2 basic problems with it, though. 1. Phlebotinum Overload is a really lame way to take down a villain. Imagine if Kefka had just plain died at the Floating Continent because of his absorbtion of the Warring Triad. It would make sense, but it would be anticlimactic as Hell. 2. It feels really messy & disorganized. As for the energy beam, that did kind of bother me. I mean, seriously, it ripped through Central HQ like butter. I find it a stretch that Al's body could have survived & how in the world did Ed not die?

Kefka: If the statues can absorb magic, then it logically follows that someone with their power can also absorb magic. Either way, I was looking for examples of how a heroic victory doesn't altogether make sense. And you have to admit that, compared to other villains in the series, there is absolutely no attempt to explain how they could have defeated something that powerful. CoD- Had to be weakened by the self-sacrifice of the Dark Warriors. Zeromus-Had to be weakened by a crystal. Exdeath- The previous Light Warriors had to hold back his Void power & then he was consumed by the Void. Sephiroth-Doesn't take fights seriously due to his own arrogance. Sin- Had its shell blasted through, then was weakened by having Yu Yevon possess the summons.

Magus · 05-26-2010, 12:45 PM

There were like 14 of them and even within the plot I think you're supposed to see their leveling as them gaining pretty massively in magical power through the acquiring of Espers and so forth, not just as a gameplay device. It's actually somewhat more satisfying than "Kefka is weakened by such and such plot device to allow him to be destroyed" if you think about it as the characters actually building up their strength enough that their power combined can take him down (which plays into the them of love and friendship and perseverance conquering evil or whatever).

I think you misinterpreted some of the other ones (Sin for example is simply an armored shell for Yu Yevon, who is so weak he has to parasitically attach himself to summons. Since you destroy the current summon and then turn all the other summons in the world to stone, he no longer has anything to attach himself to and dies ) but I think it's less satisfying when some deus ex machina shows up and saves the day. Unfortunately, if you've overpowered the foe of the heroes, it becomes less realistic for them to accomplish the feat of defeating the foe themselves.

Is Father being unable to hold in the power of God being his downfall not satisfying? Not really. The alchemical circle they discovered and set off is what subtracted the souls from him, making him too weak to hold it in . They are directly responsible for his weakness...although it might be less satisfying because the people responsible (Scar, Hohenheim, Marcoh) are not the two main protagonists (Ed and Al), so I guess you could argue the weakening of the foe is from an outside force (kind of like FFV), allowing him to be defeated, instead of from the main characters, so it can be less satisfying. It just seems like a direct fight would be unrealistic at this point, since unlike in say FF there is no plot basis for someone's alchemy becoming more powerful and overwhelming or something, outside of using souls for greater feats of strength which the protagonists want to avoid.

Lithp · 05-26-2010, 09:11 PM

Kefka: Excuse the bluntness, but that is a massive cop-out & I hate it when people use it. It is not a neat or interesting plot device, nor does it make sense. Kefka is the God of Magic. Literally, he is the God of All Magic. And people expect me to believe that he can be defeated by just gaining enough magic? The Gods he absorbed CREATED the Espers, I cannot believe that they would be enough to realistically destroy him.

Which is why I theorize that the final battle is Suicide By Cop, but that's another matter entirely.

Sin I didn't "misinterpret" at all....

Father: It is unsatisfying, but not because of the characters who do it. I think Sarda said it best:

"No way. I am Sarda. I am omnipotent. I am older than the universe. I will not be outdone by some amateur hour horseshit like absorbing too much power & exploding. I am Sarda. My will be done."

Phlebotinum Overload is a really lame way to take down a villain. It would be much more satisfying if they, in steps, figured out how to remove his god powers from the equation, how to weaken him, & then how to destroy him using alchemy. I find it odd that you complain about Deus Ex Machina in other areas when that's basically what this is. Now, it was alright with Sarda because the fight was already over when he bit the big one.

Kyanbu The Legend · 05-26-2010, 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lithp

Kefka: Excuse the bluntness, but that is a massive cop-out & I hate it when people use it. It is not a neat or interesting plot device, nor does it make sense. Kefka is the God of Magic. Literally, he is the God of All Magic. And people expect me to believe that he can be defeated by just gaining enough magic? The Gods he absorbed CREATED the Espers, I cannot believe that they would be enough to realistically destroy him.

Which is why I theorize that the final battle is Suicide By Cop, but that's another matter entirely.

Sin I didn't "misinterpret" at all....

Father: It is unsatisfying, but not because of the characters who do it. I think Sarda said it best:

"No way. I am Sarda. I am omnipotent. I am older than the universe. I will not be outdone by some amateur hour horseshit like absorbing too much power & exploding. I am Sarda. My will be done."

Phlebotinum Overload is a really lame way to take down a villain. It would be much more satisfying if they, in steps, figured out how to remove his god powers from the equation, how to weaken him, & then how to destroy him using alchemy. I find it odd that you complain about Deus Ex Machina in other areas when that's basically what this is. Now, it was alright with Sarda because the fight was already over when he bit the big one.

The problem I have with writing a God villain is that unless the heroes them selves are gods. There is no way for the villain to lose that won't still be a Dues Ex Machina in the end. Him being able to be de-powered is a Duex Ex Machina because it wouldn't make sense for him to be able to be weaken as he would have known about and dealt with said weakness.

I've written my self into a corner that way before and no amount of help could change the fact that I screwed my self over doing that with a one shot villain. Theres no way for the protagonists to even survive let alone win with out applying a form of Duex Ex Machina.

It's usually unavoidable.

Lithp · 05-26-2010, 11:54 PM

I don't really mind Deus Ex Machina, I'm just saying that what they're doing to Father totally is one...or 3.

As a side note, ever think of a plot device & then literally be unable to figure out how to beat it? It's a strange moment.

To get off-topic (or perhaps more on-topic), I wonder how Father is going to go out. Is he going to be spared? Is he going to go out in a sad way, like Envy, or sadistic & cruel to the end, like Lust? If any of the homunculi are spared, how would they go about fitting in with the world?

05-22-2010, 11:31 AM	#63
Lithp Boo Buddy Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 400	I am using the quick reply at the bottom of the page. Also, I don't entirely like the direction the manga chose to go for its final battle. __________________ Great site, especially for RPers: http://degosroleplaying.aceboard.com/ (As you can see, the key to advertisement is subtlety.)

05-23-2010, 05:50 PM	#64
Kim adorable Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 12,950	Latest ep was good. Didn't feel like as much was accomplished in this episode as in much of the other recent ones, but it was still quite enjoyable. We've got six episodes or so left? Not sure if they can conclude the plot in that amount of time but I wish them luck. __________________ this post is about how to successfully H the Kimmy

05-24-2010, 01:18 PM	#65
Magus Archer and Armstrong vs. the World Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 7,164	On protagonists: if you kill your "main character" off at the beginning of the second book, I am going to come out and say that he is not the protagonist of that particular book. I'm sure he was the protagonist of the first one but he is not going to be the protagonist of the second by dint of the fact that he's barely in it. Unless it's a cool plot device where some seemingly insignificant thing that he did in the first few chapters before dying ends up saving the day at the end, that is always cool. Not sure if he'd still be the "main character" but he'd definitely be one of the most important secondary characters. Unfortunately this usually leads to people saying it was Deus Ex Machina because you remove the ending of the conflict from the hands of the protagonist. Killing off the main character at the beginning of the second book brings up interesting questions, though, such as "who is the main character of the series?" At this point, I guess we'd have to say there is more than one. It still seems like the category of "main character" or "protagonist" should be kept to as few characters as possible for the sake of organization and relevance. On FMA: Father's stone is less than Hohenheim's at this point, due to all the stuff he's been doing, that is why Father looked older than Hohenheim. It doesn't really make sense that that is the fact, of course, but that's my reasoning for why Father had a more wrinkled face. The impression given however is that 500,000 souls is a ridiculously large amount and you can basically do infinite amounts of things over the course of several centuries and you'll still only use up like 10,000 of them, though. In any case, the current strategy of wearing down Father's shell by making him use power in worthless attacks made much more realistic sense than tackling him head on. Huge epic battle where they traded blows wouldn't have made more sense. Obviously there are very good "coincidences" where they survive Father's fruitless attacks (everyone surviving the energy beam at the end of Chapter 106, for example), but the overall strategy makes way more sense than an actual fight. Would an actual fight be more satisfying? Probably. I don't think you can say what the author is doing is less realistic though. Also Kefka never negated magic. He stood in the center of the balanced statues when Gestahl attacked him and supposedly they absorbed the magic directed at Kefka. It didn't really have anything to do with Kefka's later achievement of god power from putting them out of balance and absorbing the energy. __________________ The Valiant Review

05-25-2010, 09:22 PM	#66
Lithp Boo Buddy Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 400	Father: I think people look way too deeply into the fact that he looks older. The fact is that the main difference between Hohenheim's face & Father's is that Father is always scowling. If you're doing that all of the time, of course you're going to look a bit different. Greed does say he's gotten older, but that was probably just a taunt &, technically, he is older, regardless of whether or not he physically ages. But, anyway, we haven't been told that his stone is smaller since he keeps making more, I'd say it's probably bigger. Although really, it's anyone's guess. Strategy: Except for the question of why Father doesn't just disintegrate them, it does make sense. I have 2 basic problems with it, though. 1. Phlebotinum Overload is a really lame way to take down a villain. Imagine if Kefka had just plain died at the Floating Continent because of his absorbtion of the Warring Triad. It would make sense, but it would be anticlimactic as Hell. 2. It feels really messy & disorganized. As for the energy beam, that did kind of bother me. I mean, seriously, it ripped through Central HQ like butter. I find it a stretch that Al's body could have survived & how in the world did Ed not die? Kefka: If the statues can absorb magic, then it logically follows that someone with their power can also absorb magic. Either way, I was looking for examples of how a heroic victory doesn't altogether make sense. And you have to admit that, compared to other villains in the series, there is absolutely no attempt to explain how they could have defeated something that powerful. CoD- Had to be weakened by the self-sacrifice of the Dark Warriors. Zeromus-Had to be weakened by a crystal. Exdeath- The previous Light Warriors had to hold back his Void power & then he was consumed by the Void. Sephiroth-Doesn't take fights seriously due to his own arrogance. Sin- Had its shell blasted through, then was weakened by having Yu Yevon possess the summons. __________________ Great site, especially for RPers: http://degosroleplaying.aceboard.com/ (As you can see, the key to advertisement is subtlety.)

05-26-2010, 12:45 PM	#67
Magus Archer and Armstrong vs. the World Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 7,164	There were like 14 of them and even within the plot I think you're supposed to see their leveling as them gaining pretty massively in magical power through the acquiring of Espers and so forth, not just as a gameplay device. It's actually somewhat more satisfying than "Kefka is weakened by such and such plot device to allow him to be destroyed" if you think about it as the characters actually building up their strength enough that their power combined can take him down (which plays into the them of love and friendship and perseverance conquering evil or whatever). I think you misinterpreted some of the other ones (Sin for example is simply an armored shell for Yu Yevon, who is so weak he has to parasitically attach himself to summons. Since you destroy the current summon and then turn all the other summons in the world to stone, he no longer has anything to attach himself to and dies ) but I think it's less satisfying when some deus ex machina shows up and saves the day. Unfortunately, if you've overpowered the foe of the heroes, it becomes less realistic for them to accomplish the feat of defeating the foe themselves. Is Father being unable to hold in the power of God being his downfall not satisfying? Not really. The alchemical circle they discovered and set off is what subtracted the souls from him, making him too weak to hold it in . They are directly responsible for his weakness...although it might be less satisfying because the people responsible (Scar, Hohenheim, Marcoh) are not the two main protagonists (Ed and Al), so I guess you could argue the weakening of the foe is from an outside force (kind of like FFV), allowing him to be defeated, instead of from the main characters, so it can be less satisfying. It just seems like a direct fight would be unrealistic at this point, since unlike in say FF there is no plot basis for someone's alchemy becoming more powerful and overwhelming or something, outside of using souls for greater feats of strength which the protagonists want to avoid. __________________ The Valiant Review Last edited by Magus; 05-26-2010 at 12:49 PM.

05-26-2010, 09:11 PM	#68
Lithp Boo Buddy Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 400	Kefka: Excuse the bluntness, but that is a massive cop-out & I hate it when people use it. It is not a neat or interesting plot device, nor does it make sense. Kefka is the God of Magic. Literally, he is the God of All Magic. And people expect me to believe that he can be defeated by just gaining enough magic? The Gods he absorbed CREATED the Espers, I cannot believe that they would be enough to realistically destroy him. Which is why I theorize that the final battle is Suicide By Cop, but that's another matter entirely. Sin I didn't "misinterpret" at all.... Father: It is unsatisfying, but not because of the characters who do it. I think Sarda said it best: "No way. I am Sarda. I am omnipotent. I am older than the universe. I will not be outdone by some amateur hour horseshit like absorbing too much power & exploding. I am Sarda. My will be done." Phlebotinum Overload is a really lame way to take down a villain. It would be much more satisfying if they, in steps, figured out how to remove his god powers from the equation, how to weaken him, & then how to destroy him using alchemy. I find it odd that you complain about Deus Ex Machina in other areas when that's basically what this is. Now, it was alright with Sarda because the fight was already over when he bit the big one. __________________ Great site, especially for RPers: http://degosroleplaying.aceboard.com/ (As you can see, the key to advertisement is subtlety.)

05-26-2010, 11:54 PM	#70
Lithp Boo Buddy Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 400	I don't really mind Deus Ex Machina, I'm just saying that what they're doing to Father totally is one...or 3. As a side note, ever think of a plot device & then literally be unable to figure out how to beat it? It's a strange moment. To get off-topic (or perhaps more on-topic), I wonder how Father is going to go out. Is he going to be spared? Is he going to go out in a sad way, like Envy, or sadistic & cruel to the end, like Lust? If any of the homunculi are spared, how would they go about fitting in with the world? __________________ Great site, especially for RPers: http://degosroleplaying.aceboard.com/ (As you can see, the key to advertisement is subtlety.)

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