We will now discuss Naruto is a spoilery manner.

[Lithp]

That's pretty much my reaction, except switch out Gai punching flaming tigers with "the hope that Orochimaru will come back."

[Kyanbu The Legend]

Originally Posted by Art of Hilt

I- okay, so the moon was a recent invention?
And it has a... Ten-Tailed Beast?
I-, I- why am I reading this manga again?

EDIT- oh right because of Gai punching flaming tigers okay.

Well no, they don't exactly say how long ago it was made. And there might of been a moon before it that may have been destroyed by the ten-tail.

[Sithdarth]

The problem is that there are plenty of things that are not backed up by reasons given in the story. For example, there is no reasoning for how a humanoid species could exist on a planet with no moon, even though it apparently happened.

Irrelevant to a fantasy setting. The laws of physics, chemistry, biology, etc only apply as far as the author says they do and that isn't very far when you've got a chakra circulatory system and people creating water, fire, and lightning out of nowhere and throwing balls of chakra at each other. Not to mention giant talking frogs, snakes, slugs, turtles and who knows what else. What ever is happening it isn't evolution as we know it.

Assuming that the plot makes sense for no other reason than that it happened that way is circular reasoning.

That is no where near what I said. First off I said very clearly that when you find a contradiction you withhold judgment unless/until you've got more information or a review of old information clears it up taking into account that not all information given to you might be correct. At that point the plot makes sense because the author followed a set of rules that follow the rules of logic or in other words the plot makes sense for no other reason than it happened logically. Incidentally this is also how we do science and math especially when it gets counter intuitive. We accept wave particle duality precisely because as illogical as it seems it still follows a set of rules that adhere to logic and the reality it describes is both logically sound and matches what is seen. The same process must be applied to any fantasy setting.

Also, as I said before any system based on logic that perfectly describes everything is totally unrealistic as proven by Godel. Which is a good thing to keep in mind. There has to be some inconsistencies/mysteries to make the world feel real.

That and your still assuming there is such a thing as space in Naruto and that the Naruto Earth is round and that there are no other explanations possible for stable seasons.

At least it isn't like Bleach where even though Aizen's power has been expounded on greatly it is still entirely unclear exactly what it does and what its limits are. That and we know Kubo has a habit of using false exposition in terms of the powers of his characters, I'm looking at you Gin. So there is no real way to conclusively know what Aizen is capable of until he fights seriously and even then the nature of his power might prevent that.

[EVILNess]

LOL @ people over-thinking shonen manga.

[BitVyper]

Originally Posted by Kyanbu The Legend

That was understandable

Considering that they in the end only won by trying the their last plan to stop him. Reason with him.

Um, as far as I know, the Shaman King manga ended with the group trying their damnedest to get to Hao BEFORE he could become God, but while he was weak in his transformation so they could kill him. And unfortunately never went further than that.

Then the anime made a shitty filler ending made of shit that actually managed to be worse than no ending at all. And I don't think they reasoned with Hao in that one either.

[Lithp]

First off I said very clearly that when you find a contradiction you withhold judgment unless/until you've got more information or a review of old information clears it up taking into account that not all information given to you might be correct.

I had said that there was as little sense in saying that the logic is being followed as that it is not being followed. Your response was, "Uh no." In other words, you did not clearly say to withhold judgment.

At that point the plot makes sense because the author followed a set of rules that follow the rules of logic or in other words the plot makes sense for no other reason than it happened logically.

Wait, what is "at that point"? Is "that point" where you are in the story, or after all information has been given?

That and your still assuming there is such a thing as space in Naruto and that the Naruto Earth is round and that there are no other explanations possible for stable seasons.

There is space in Naruto. If there wasn't, there couldn't be space/time ninjutsu.

At least it isn't like Bleach where even though Aizen's power has been expounded on greatly it is still entirely unclear exactly what it does and what its limits are.

Madara.
Sasuke.
Probably Naruto.
I'd be willing to bet Zetsu. Speaking of, we're probably never going to get an explanation for why he, Kisami, & Orochimaru are--well, whatever they are.
Hell, Tsukiyomi, Amaterasu, & Susanoo were abilities exlusive to Itachi until Kishimoto decided that wasn't true at complete random.

[Kim]

Originally Posted by Lithp

There is space in Naruto. If there wasn't, there couldn't be space/time ninjutsu.

...I'm pretty sure those are two different spaces...

[IHateMakingNames]

Originally Posted by BitVyper

Um, as far as I know, the Shaman King manga ended with the group trying their damnedest to get to Hao BEFORE he could become God, but while he was weak in his transformation so they could kill him. And unfortunately never went further than that.

Unrelated to Naruto, but they finished the Shaman King manga. You need to get to googling.

[Lithp]

Originally Posted by NonCon

...I'm pretty sure those are two different spaces...

Okay, then there's space because of the night sky. Yes, there is an infinite number of possible assumptions for pretty much anything.

That's why logic uses razors. Why should I imagine that, say, the sky is an elaborate genjutsu, when the far simpler explanation is just to assume that it's fucking outer space until something to the contrary is said?

Maybe Naruto is secretly 3 large weasels in a boy costume. There is never going to be a statement specifically denying that. In spite of that, I'm gonna go ahead & never factor that possibility into my interpretation of the story ever.

If you want to wait for every single "what if" scenario to be exposed, then you're never going to be able to make any kind of commentary whatsoever, because it isn't going to happen.

[Sithdarth]

I had said that there was as little sense in saying that the logic is being followed as that it is not being followed. Your response was, "Uh no." In other words, you did not clearly say to withhold judgment.

There is more than one conversation going one here. There is the one specifically about if Naruto violates its own internal logic and there is the one about how logic operates in fantasy realms in general. In terms of Naruto and basically any fantasy setting having to make assumptions like there is no such thing as outerspace is not even remotely grounds for saying logic is not being followed. The only way logic is not being followed is if something happens that was never explained nor could potentially be explained. Like if one of the side characters suddenly showed up with a second head growing out of their shoulder and no one noticed or acknowledged something is wrong. That is the only kind of thing that dictates if a fantasy setting is illogical or not. Being forced to assume that every night magic gnomes paint the stairs on the sky because at some point during the plot you meet a star painting gnome does not make the story illogical. Once again assumptions that seem illogical are never a reason to call a story illogical. The story remains logical until you can't connect those assumptions to the events of the story. Like if after meeting the star painting gnome the hero jumps into a rocket and visits Alpha Century that would be illogical.

Wait, what is "at that point"? Is "that point" where you are in the story, or after all information has been given?

I'd say this is an entirely individual thing and any individual reader may never reach this point. Try reading anything by Philip K Dick. His stories have a wonderful internal logic that I know must exist but I can never quite put my finger on.

There is space in Naruto. If there wasn't, there couldn't be space/time ninjutsu.

Yeah outerspace ? space

Madara.
Sasuke.
Probably Naruto.
I'd be willing to bet Zetsu. Speaking of, we're probably never going to get an explanation for why he, Kisami, & Orochimaru are--well, whatever they are.

The difference being that none of these people aren't the sole enemy and we have examples of all of them losing at least once. We know that there is a why to counter them. Aizen had a hole blown into his chest and it didn't even cause him to blink and that was without whatever other power his sword actually has.

Hell, Tsukiyomi, Amaterasu, & Susanoo were abilities exlusive to Itachi until Kishimoto decided that wasn't true at complete random.

It doesn't even remotely seem random. We've got a grand total of three examples of users of that particular eye. For a very long time we only had two and only one of them was at that level. Those two were brothers making them closely related and therefore making the genetic expression of their powers likely to be very similar. Further, Itachi straight up implanted powers into his brother and apparently Naruto. That change was about a completely random as having a hole in your foot after shooting yourself in the foot.

That's why logic uses razors. Why should I imagine that, say, the sky is an elaborate genjutsu, when the far simpler explanation is just to assume that it's fucking outer space until something to the contrary is said?

Maybe Naruto is secretly 3 large weasels in a boy costume. There is never going to be a statement specifically denying that. In spite of that, I'm gonna go ahead & never factor that possibility into my interpretation of the story ever.

The point is that you didn't do that at all. You assumed muscle strength limits were somehow the same as in reality. Something to the contrary happened and instead of saying "Oh I made a bad assumption" you said "WTF Naruto has no internal logic!" which is well wrong.

If you want to wait for every single "what if" scenario to be exposed, then you're never going to be able to make any kind of commentary whatsoever, because it isn't going to happen.

There is a difference between doing that and simply allowing for the possibility of your assumptions being proven wrong by the story which you did not do at the beginning of this. You stated Naruto had no logic because it violated an assumption you had made about how muscles in the series work. This was not a problem with the logic of the story it was a problem with your logic i.e. an inability to accept the possibility of your base assumptions being incorrect.