Snake Watches Re:Zero, Because He Too Wants to Die and Escape Reality

[_mike]

No one said that yandere logic was necessarily bad, or that Subaru isn't a semi-delusional ass with a terrible conception of how love works who can only grow from his suffering. Hell, Subaru's dispair is what made me enjoy these episodes so very much.

But your phrasing brought to mind a girl in a dark room with a knife trying to make the boy she likes understand that he'll love her once the suffering is over. It's more an issue of impressions rather than of the substance of your views.

[Solid Snake]

Originally Posted by Gregness

Not even gonna mention Felix?

Both Reinhard and Crusch are far better non-Rem options for anyone than Felix.

Originally Posted by _mike

But your phrasing brought to mind a girl in a dark room with a knife trying to make the boy she likes understand that he'll love her once the suffering is over.

How delightfully appropriate

[Gregness]

Originally Posted by Solid Snek

Both Reinhard and Crusch are far better non-Rem options for anyone than Felix.

Shit. I have reaction gifs for this, but they're from future episodes.

GET TO WATCHIN' SNEK!

[Solid Snake]

It isn't quite my preferred ship just yet or anything, as there's really no evidence in canon to support the pairing, but it randomly occurred to me on my flight today that perhaps the single most hysterical thing that could possibly happen to Subaru in a future episode would involve him learning that Emilia and Rem became a couple.

...Just watching him lose his mind over that would be glorious.

[Sithdarth]

It isn't quite my preferred ship just yet or anything, as there's really no evidence in canon to support the pairing, but it randomly occurred to me on my flight today that perhaps the single most hysterical thing that could possibly happen to Subaru in a future episode would involve him learning that Emilia and Rem became a couple.

...Just watching him lose his mind over that would be glorious.

Subaru and Julius Euclius are totally the one true pairing.

[Solid Snake]

Episode 18

...I didn't like this episode.
I didn't like it at all.

Here's what's strange: On the basis of a mild amount of relatively vague spoilers I had been exposed to prior to watching this episode, this is how I thought Episode 18 would go:

A: I'd love the episode at first. I'd be shouting "YES!" and talking all about how the animation was beautiful (it was) and the music was touching (it was) and how Rem and Subaru are perfect for each other and it's finally happening and yadda yadda.
B: I'd continue loving it until Subaru said the stupid, immature, nonsensical thing I suspected Nagatsuki would coerce him to say.
C: Then I'd scream "NO!" a zillion times and sulk over my ship sinking.
D: The optimist in me would frame the episode as a consequence of Subaru's immaturity and would hold out hope that he'd eventually grow up and see the truth. The pessimist in me would threaten to give up on the show or just throw one of those melodramatic frenzied fits over how Nagatsuki was stupid to inadvertently write the perfect romance only to yank it all away from us.

(...Coincidentally, I thought based on the spoilers I'd read that Subaru would simply reject Rem's affections and they'd move on as friends. I did not think he'd be so stupid as to reaffirm a love for Emilia, given that they haven't even canonically interacted since Episode 13. Subaru's declaration for Emilia is awful, I really hated it as it happened, but it isn't even what I want to talk about, or what I really object to.)

...So, that's what I thought would happen, and what I braced myself for.
Instead, I got an Episode that was far, far worse.
And what really aggravates me most is, just reading others' reactions to this episode and what everyone else complained about in their criticisms and reviews of Episode 18, I really don't feel that my perspective on this episode, or Re:Zero as a whole at this juncture, is shared by anyone.

I'm going to share my thoughts anyway, albeit in a different format than usual because I really don't feel like I captured why I disliked this episode adequately in my set of initial in-the-moment reactions.

While the art and the voice acting and the music and all the production values were phenomenal, I hated pretty much every moment of the episode after Subaru brought Rem to those Roman ruins. This reaction surprised me. I went into this all thinking I'd at least enjoy the first half or so of the dialogue, particularly given that Rem was there, and Rem's always been the best.

But everything was just...awful. And bizarrely, it wasn't only Subaru who was awful. Rem was kind of awful, too! That was surprising.

Allow me to elaborate:

1: I don't object to Subaru's initial plan to run the hell away at all. His experiences were bound to break him sooner or later. What I do object to is how lazy it felt, and how unrealistic it felt, for Subaru to practically propose marriage to Rem during that sequence, before the two had any opportunity to even explore their feelings for each other, before the two dated or had any interactions I'd describe as genuinely romantic.

Mind you, I ship these two! You'd think I'd be thrilled to watch Subaru confess a desire to run away and spend his life with her, right? But it was all so sudden. I know it's not sudden from Subaru's perspective but it certainly was sudden from Rem's, and even Subaru hadn't really processed any of these emotions while having the crap kicked out of him in the other worldlines.

What I wish happened here was that Subaru should've told Rem he was running away and possibly offered for her to join him, if only to prevent her from dying or being erased from existence, like maybe he could insinuate her life was in jeopardy too without describing the true nature of his resurrection powers. But I wish that plea to run away didn't also include Subaru propositioning Rem, then and there, to practically marry him and live with him. That's inconceivably stupid. Even knowing Rem liked him, a crush and about a week to a month's worth of unrequited glances and 'Subaru kawaii!' comments doesn't justify that.

2: But then, even under the pretense of refuting Subaru's logic and challenging him from running, Rem proceeds to destroy her own independence and her own agency as a human being by buying into the fantasy.

And it actually becomes genuinely creepy, even for her, and she's one of my favorite animated characters ever! She starts talking about living with him in a new nation and even begins detailing what their children would be like. This whole sequence might've worked if it was just Rem imagining the fantasy in her own head, we all have overactive imaginations when it comes to people we're crushing on, but as an overt declaration made verbally to Subaru it is so weird. It is completely out of character for her, given how she's generally been the shy one compared to Ram, and nothing Rem's experienced in her current continuity justifies it. Maybe as she's dying in Episode 15, if she were in slightly better shape while she was in Subaru's arms, she could gush about this fantasy and it would feel organic and well-placed as a final confession of her innermost desires.

And it just keeps going. She's going to stay on his side as they grow old, she's going to love him even as their children grow cold and distant...
...I was known back in my days as an idealistic young'un as the one in my group of guy friends who made all the most cringeworthy confessions of fairy tale style 'True Love' to my unrequited crushes but even in my worst moments of singing half-baked songs or writing gushy poems I wasn't like this.

It's just so much, it's utterly unearned...
...and it strips Rem of her humanity.

3: I really liked Rem in earlier episodes because she was presented as her own person, with her own flaws and issues to overcome, with her own tragic backstory and her own personality and attitude. She was never just Subaru's designated love interest, I never felt like she was portrayed as just a sort of perfect Guardian Angel / doting fangirl of Subaru's.

By contrast, the circumstances that led her to love Subaru felt organic and natural. She falls for him at the end of Episode 11 because, around her, Subaru isn't the same delusional, manipulative jerk he's been around Emilia. Subaru lets his guard down with Rem because he views her as a person and not just the designated love interest, and so he relates to her on a level that's profound and moving and that exposes both their vulnerabilities but gives them both a chance to heal and grow together.

And Rem works so well between her introduction and Episode 17 because she feels fully realized as a person who falls for Subaru, but whose attraction to him isn't 'preordained' by fate or the Gods or some other fictional trope. Hell, she spends the first few episodes distrusting and suspicious of Subaru and kills him in a couple worldlines as she perceives him to be a threat to Emilia and Roswaal. It wasn't exactly a moment full of mercy for her, either. She's a demon, after all, so it's within the realm of her characterization to be a bit brutal and cruel to those she perceives as enemies -- particularly enemies affiliated with the Cult that burned down her hometown and killed nearly everyone she knew as a child.

Subaru's initial challenge in those worldlines was to try to find a way to convince Rem that he was an ally and not an enemy -- and when he does, he exposes himself in a such a way that Rem's attraction to him is based not on some fantastical interpretation of his heroism or his character but rather on the fullness of his flaws and broken nature. That worked. It worked so well! I will always love Episode 11.

But this...this is a real regression for Rem. It doesn't make any sense to me. I can't fully wrap my mind around it. I can only think of one explanation for it...and it makes me angry to dwell on it.

4: This whole sequence feels like Tappei Nagatsuki attempting to force his hand and sink a ship that organically grew from well-written chemistry between two characters who played off each other's warts and flaws effortlessly in places like Episode 11 by reframing the realization of their love as the immature and selfish option. Even Rem realizes that in the context of Subaru's pleas to run and that's ultimately why she opposes the notion.

But it's bizarre for the pairing to even be framed like this.

5: I keep reading online that people perceive Rem's confession and her longwinded imaginary detour into old age as heartfelt.
...It didn't ring as heartfelt to me. It seemed hollow and denigrating to her. It reduced her from her own person to just 'Subaru's staunch and devoted love interest' and it...

...even more so than last episode (ironically!), it felt like Nagatsuki was erasing Rem from existence. Like, now she's just going to be this unwavering lover of all things Subaru, free of criticism or condemnation even when it's earned, free of any of the nuance we've seen from her in the past, just kind of drooling over him and dreaming about him as if Subaru has always been and will always be the sole thing that defines her and gives her meaning.
...Like, where even was her beloved sister Ram in her fantasy?!?

I always liked Rem's crush on Subaru because I didn't really think it'd consume her like this. It's sad that it reached this level and it's sad that Subaru, in his moment of weakness, actually feeds into this delusion. The whole thing feels exceedingly poorly written. Real people aren't like this. Well-created characters in fictional narratives, even harem animes, shouldn't really be like this. Rean Schwarzer in Trails of Cold Steel has his massive harem of girls from all walks of life with monstrous crushes on him (seriously, just look up all his 'bonding events' with them on Youtube) but none of them give up their own independent hopes and dreams and agency as unique human beings just for the off-chance he'll reciprocate romantic feelings.

Maybe, just maybe you could argue that Subaru's been broken down repeatedly through a series of existential agonies that suddenly everything's been laid bare for him to such an extent that this doesn't look so crazy...but to Rem, who has none of those memories and who barely has reason to believe she has any reason for running, this is all fucking crazy. It's unprompted and unprovoked and it's needlessly destroying an excellent ship.

It angers me so much. I know you didn't expect this reaction from me but goddamn it, I always prefaced my desire for a confession between these two with the hopes that it'd be well-written and realistic and convincingly sensible.

6: Weirdly enough, Subaru actually showing the conviction (even if it's misplaced and selfish) to bark back at Rem for insinuating he was just 'giving up' without cause was one of my favorite moments in this episode.

I think that's actually because Subaru is actually standing up to what I'll call 'Angelic Rem', this notion that this iteration of Rem who loves Subaru so unconditionally is so attuned somehow to the circumstances of Subaru's suffering, that she's so compassionate and so considerate and so effortlessly perfect. Subaru actually reminds her and the viewer that's not the case, and that his trauma is much deeper than what Rem can reasonably speculate, and in a weird way it also casts even further doubt on Rem's fantasy delusions because it shines a harsh spotlight on the fact that she's descending into such baseless fairy-tale lunacy without even comprehending where Subaru's irrational mental breakdown is coming from.

Later, Subaru rants about Rem not knowing him as well as she thinks she does, and I actually agree with Subaru there too! Subaru's had this whole past on Earth before he arrived in Lugunica that Rem knows next to nothing about. It's strange to watch 'Angelic Rem' speak with such confidence and authority as to the depth of Subaru's character when she's seen him act shallow and manipulative nearly as much as she's seen him be brave, heroic, compassionate or endearing.

The irony here is that Subaru spends much of this being realistically harsh on himself, as he should be in order to encourage his character growth through persevering through the realizations of his failures and inadequacies...and Rem threatens to undo that potential growth by talking him up into the generic harem-style unwavering protagonist he shouldn't be. Subaru is reaching a breaking point that could actually be constructive to his long-term goals if he works through it and Rem might well prevent that with some big-shot hero speech.

...My God, I'm siding with Subaru and against Rem on something.
This episode is just Snek's-in-Opposite-Land in so many ways.

7: We finally get to a part of Rem's confession that I actually appreciate, where she reveals the positive traits she's seen in him during their past interactions that led her to fall for him. That's nice! I wish we didn't spend ten minutes in fantasyland before reaching this point, as this is actually the context that underlines my appreciation for Rem and Subaru as a pairing, but by now it just feels too little too late, and I've spent too much time feeling let down by the previous sequence to feel the emotions I should be feeling when Rem tries to heal Subaru's emotional wounds with praise here.

Even still, what I dislike here is how so much of Rem's speech to Subaru is based on her assumptions about him. She's falling into the old bad author's trap of telling us information about Subaru's character without showing us. Simply stating that Subaru would 'never give up' doesn't make that so, and a single example of Subaru caring about villagers or saving Rem in Episode 11 isn't enough of a sample size to drive her point home.

...You know what this really feels like? It feels like a Season Five style monologue for Rem to give Subaru that's been dropped in Season One for some reason. This would be perfect to hear after Rem's known and cared for Subaru for months or even years and after they've faced all kinds of trials together. This would be perfect for her to share with him before they confront the Final Boss, before they reach their tale's ending, when Subaru faces threats so paralyzing that even after standing firm for years on end he finally reaches a true breaking point. Here it's just...this weird climax moment while we still haven't defeated the first of the seven sins. To say Tappei Nagatsuki struggles with pacing issues at this juncture would be a massive understatement; this is him pigeon-holing dialogue from Chapter 77 into Chapter 18.

8: Beyond all that, I'm disappointed that Nagatsuki didn't utilize this as an opportunity to give Subaru depth with a genuine Earth backstory. Instead it's just him generically ranting about having accomplished nothing before reaching Lugunica. I may be alone in this, but I want Subaru to have a unique backstory that differentiates him from other shut-in nerds, not just be an everyman we can all see parts of ourselves in. Shouldn't he have a family to miss by now, a friend to speak highly of, a favorite TV show or anime or videogame he misses? Isn't there anything we can give him so he'll stop being so paper-thin and boneless, a walking cliche built upon lifeless cliches?

9: There's about a minute or two packed in here that I really did like, and it's the actual meat of what I'll call Rem's "real confession" around the 18 minute mark. It's just superficial enough that it actually works in a human way -- she's not talking about any larger-than-life fantasies or any way-too-deep infatuation but about the small, subtle physical attributes and gestures she appreciates in him, the little moments where she loses herself in feelings for him.

That's real. That's genuine. That's authentically how crushes work. It's a little corny, sure, but it works so much better than anything before it did. It works much better than all of Rem's misplaced assumptions of Subaru's virtuous character. It works because it shows a certain perceptiveness I've always appreciated in Rem, that she picks up on these tiny signs of Subaru's fundamentally goodhearted (albeit miserably imperfect) nature through something as simple as the way he walks.

It's simple and human and endearing and exactly how two young, inexperienced prospective lovers might describe the traits they appreciate and it encapsulates everything I loved about this pairing before this episode.

These are wonderful things Rem actually knows about Subaru, and it's actually the most fitting way for her to rebuild his demoralized psyche...
...which is why Nagatsuki and the artists have to ruin that moment less than two minutes later.

"When Subaru is all immature and blurts that he really loves some other girl who just rejected his sorry ass and who he barely even knows?" you inquire.
NOPE!! It's ruined when Rem proudly declares she sees Subaru as her 'hero' and then a flock of goddamned cliche birds fly behind her reinforcing that...
...she's Angel Rem.
Or maybe Aerith Rem or something.
Like, this is all it: This is her purpose now. She's just going to talk Subaru up, in a way that doesn't even really address his needs or offer him genuine consolation; she's just going to praise him and refuse to call him out on his shortcomings; she's just going to become the perfect member of the Subaru harem that Subaru probably imagined he'd garner in this fantasy world the moment he realized he was the protagonist in a fantasy RPG.

You know what's really sad? If Emilia's going to keep calling Subaru out when he behaves like a misogynistic, manipulative asshole, and Rem won't, maybe Emilia is better for him at the end of the day, at least there's something fundamentally human in having a partner who challenges you when you're delusional and who forces you to own up and accept responsibility for your most egregious mistakes.
...I can't believe I just typed that.
This episode is making me lose my fucking mind.

10: There are still so many little things about Rem and Subaru that I appreciate, in spite of all this. When Rem spoke about Subaru rescuing her and 'unfreezing' her heart, I was genuinely touched. I knew it was true and that her affections for Subaru were real in a way I had suspected since the days I typed long borderline-incoherent rants about how adorable the two were in Episodes 11 and beyond.

But by the time Subaru muttered the insensitive sentence that upset everyone else in Episode 18 I was actually relieved. I was relieved because this was not the way I wanted this romance to begin, this episode just felt so off and forced and cliche to me that I just wanted it all to end before anyone did anything else that was stupid.

It's possible Subaru and Rem could still end up together, but it for to really work, it has to earned in a lot more than just a few episodes (and really, just a few weeks of time for Rem, who is oblivious at this juncture to all Subaru's worldline shenanigans.)

Subaru needs to man up and actually defeat a few of these Cultists, starting with Sloth. He needs to be more mature and more decent before this will feel right. For her part, Rem needs to discover a way to more effectively balance her real feelings for Subaru with a bit of self-care. Because when Rem describes how Subaru saved her, it's like...yeah, it's great that you finally woke out of your decades-long slumber Rem, but if anything your single-minded dedication to Ram and now Subaru shows a disturbing pattern of co-dependency, and you're so much more than just someone's sister or lover. Your identity is not found in your work as an associate of Roswaal's or buried in the ashes of your home village or as Subaru's beloved wife destined to die in his arms. You'd be just as awesome a person even if Ram and Subaru both had terrible run-ins with that existence-erasing White Whale.

Bonus Thoughts:

- That "No...from Zero!!!" line from Rem with the conveniently-placed sun in the background sure was cringeworthy. Those kinds of moments work when they feel like authentic representations of chemistry (like, you know, that moment with the sunlit window at the end of Episode 11) but when it's forced, it's ugly.

- Subaru genuinely believing to appear that whatever it is he feels for Emilia at this juncture constitutes 'love' and not lust is still disturbing. The fact that Rem's affections for Subaru shouldn't really constitute 'love' at this juncture either or be defined in that way doesn't change the fact that Subaru's somehow even more immature about Emilia. At least there's a sensible basis for Rem's feelings for Subaru, even if she's erring a bit in turning the raw lust for him Up to Eleven with some Romeo and Juliet-esque melodrama.

- "You are a cruel man, Subaru. You ask all this of someone you just rejected?"
...At least Rem got one great zinger in there at the end.
But of course she will help him, and lose her own dreams and her own agency in the process, and she'll continue to love him dearly too, because this is going to be a continuation of Angelic Rem in a boring harem route with a boring harem anime protagonist.

Re:Zero could have been something so much more, but it looks like we're going to get a generic fantasy story anyway. That's the real tragedy. I bought into this notion that Re:Zero was going to tell a truly unique story that hadn't been told before. Now Re:Zero feels like the same kind of story I've read from countless other authors.

If this is just going to end with either Rem sacrificing herself for Emilia and Subaru's fairy-tale ending, OR Rem and Emilia both happily joining half the rest of the cast on the Subaru's Eventually Perfect Harem Train, get me the hell off this ride now, I'd rather watch better anime.
...But of course, we don't know that, we can't know that yet, and I'm not sure how patient I can be waiting for years before we even have an answer.

- There's still hope for Rem to remain Best Waifu but she needs some new friends and a new perspective on life to help her achieve her own dreams. She's still a great character and I maintain that her infatuation with Subaru is somewhat justified, BUT ironically she's a lot more like Subaru than I anticipated: Just as Subaru is at his worst when solely preoccupied with thoughts of his beloved Emilia, Rem is at her worst when it's all about him.
...She needs a mission with someone like Crusch or Reinhard to give her some bonding time with someone else.

Sorry for the Wall, but it wouldn't be a Snekpost without one.
I'll keep y'all posted if I do watch more episodes. I'm not sure whether I will just yet. It feels like Re:Zero and I are headed in very different directions and that may not be such a bad thing.

[shiney]

Watch the rest of the show. It really starts to hit its stride in this upcoming arc and is worth it. The action scenes are superb and the character development continues its impressive streak. Episode 18 is the pivotal turning point for Natsuki Subaru.

[Solid Snake]

Originally Posted by shiney

Episode 18 is the pivotal turning point for Natsuki Subaru.

A slightly more competent Subaru wouldn't be a bad thing, but your attempt to console me has actually conveyed the one potential plot twist I'm most afraid of witnessing in the next several episodes, which is this creepy pep talk from Rem being played straight as an unambiguously good thing that resets Subaru into true hero protagonist status, complete with the inerrant planning and the sudden shift into a series of inexplicable victories and everyone who previously despised Subaru now suddenly likes or even just tolerates him and he's given an ever-growing harem of infatuated gals for his efforts.

At any rate, I'll watch another episode or two before making any definitive conclusions.
Relying on this kind of trope to convey 'instant character development' is lazy, it'd have been far better for Subaru to keep failing but gradually improving in new worldlines and show him very gradually maturing as he figured out the rules and tenets of the new civilization he's in and, y'know, a healthy and appropriate relationship with someone like Rem, if she was written like a real human being and not dangerously skirting the line of yandere-style unhealthy co-dependency, wouldn't hurt either.

[Gregness]

Originally Posted by Solid Snek

Episode 18

...I didn't like this episode.
I didn't like it at all.

*snip*

Sorry for the Wall, but it wouldn't be a Snekpost without one.
I'll keep y'all posted if I do watch more episodes. I'm not sure whether I will just yet. It feels like Re:Zero and I are headed in very different directions and that may not be such a bad thing.

Okay, so there's a lot to unpack here, and I mentioned some of what I'm about to say the other day in chat, but I'll do my best to flesh out any repeats. I think the best way for me to go about this is to give some brief comments on your bullet points, then get into the big discussion.

1. I think if you treat this the same as you would a 'normal' marriage proposal, you're going to miss some of what's going on here. What exactly is 'inconceivably stupid'? I'm not just being rhetorical here. Asking Rem to run away with him is incredibly rash. It's 'stupid' in the way that people at the end of their metaphorical ropes are stupid, but that's not the way you're using the term here. You use the word 'justify' when talking about it, but he's not trying to 'justify' it. He's offering Rem what he thinks she wants in exchange for following him.

2. I don't think Rem's buying into the fantasy strips any of her agency (any agency of hers that is gone is related to something else I'll get into later). Now, this is me reading subtext into your post a bit, but it seems to me like you're taking her whole train of thought as her being swept up in the moment. As if Subaru asked his question and her brain shorted out from cardboard cutout girl-dreams. Instead, it's all just the build up to her refusing him. It's not 'pretense' as you put it. It's delivered with the same emotional arc as 'of course I've considered it, but...' and it's full of hopeless romantic fantasies because she's a hopeless romantic. Sure, from her perspective it's quick, but at the same time in-show it's been like a month or so? It'd be weirder if she hadn't fantasized given how hard she was crushing. Regardless, the choice was on Rem here, and she chose to refuse him. Your assertion is that her making a choice is robbing her of agency?

One last note I may or may not get back to later vis-a-vis this being out of character for her: 'reserved' is not the same as 'shy' (I'm not actually sure 'reserved' is the right word either, but Rem is definitely not 'shy').

3. This is closely related to the last one, so I'll just keep going I guess. The crux of this point seems to be that Rem's behavior here actually removes depth she'd acquired to this point? This is kind of weird to me since just taking the episode's events at face value, you have Rem being offered the only thing she's really wanted for herself since she was a child, and exercising the towering force of will necessary to not only refuse it, but give the pep talk to end all pep talks that makes it less likely for her to get it since Rem (and everyone else with eyeballs) knows how Subaru feels about Emilia. That kind of self-sacrifice has certainly been amply established as being in-character in a physical sense, given the beatings she's taken over the last few episodes, but now we see emotional endurance as well.

4. I think you have some weird ideas about what happened here. What she says when she refuses is "If you could wish for that future with a smile, I would be truly happy to die that way... But I cannot. Because I know that if we run away together now I would be leaving behind the Subaru that I love most." That's not about whether or not their love is selfish, it's about her knowing that if Subaru leaves now he won't be the same Subaru. So, uh, that's maybe a kind of selfish on her part? But I don't think that's what you meant. She knows that this isn't what he really wants, he's just at the end of his rope.

5. This... seems like more of the same from the last few points. Safe to say, I don't agree that her... uh... reverse-browbeating(?) Subaru into not doing the thing he started the episode set on doing somehow reduces her agency or personhood (more than it was already, I'll get to that later).

6. Again, don't think of Rem's fantasies as delusions. Consider it from the angle that she knows she's going to turn him down, and she knows what all that means for the future. It's more of a 'let me have this, just for a moment'.

7. If this is the part I'm thinking of, there's not really any assumptions there. She's saying 'I know you'll never give up, because you didn't give up on me.' Well, no assumptions except for the ones baked into that sentiment, but it's not baseless from her perspective, anyway.

8. Subaru having a genuine backstory is counterproductive to his purpose as a character. He's a deconstruction of a self-insert.

9. Yes, I thought the flock of birds was a bit much, myself, but the rest of this hardly describes anything found in the actual episode. Doesn't address his needs? He needs someone to pump him up right now. No genuine consolation? She counters his 'I am completely no good to anyone' with 'you've been good to me. I am the proof.' The bit about her not calling him out on his flaws is just you fearing for the future and giving in to hyperbole I think. Rem's never been shy about admitting his faults before, and when he's in the middle of a breakdown is maybe an okay time to not bring them up, yeah?

10. While I'm not going to say that Subaru's reply to all that isn't insensitive, from his perspective it's an 'I need to be honest and explicit with you for a second, that way we all know what we're getting into.' Even though it's crazy to still be so fixated on Emilia after everything he and Rem have been through (granted, love can be pretty crazy), he cares for and respects her enough to not lead her on.


Okay, shit, lemme gather myself up after all that...

Regarding Subaru and 'love' versus 'lust', one thing that's relevant here is that in Japanese, there's three common ways to say you 'love' someone. There's a lot of good discussion about it in the various subthreads here, but I'll try and sum it up. "Suki desu" is roughly 'I like [THING]'. You can use suki with objects, food, and the like and it has the usual connotations as in english. Use it with a person, and it usually means 'I like like you', and so is often translated as 'love' based on context. "Daisuki desu" is literally 'big like', and when used with a person means a proper 'I love you' like you'd say to a boyfriend or girlfriend. At the high end, you have "Aishiteiru" which is getting into some Romeo and Juliet 'you are my one true love' levels, to the point that the commenters in that thread say that some people are uncomfortable using it a lot/in public. So, to bring this back around, Subaru used 'suki' when telling rem how he felt about Emilia. You can take that, as I suggested above, as him just being completely straight with Rem, or maybe more optimistically for Rem, you can take it as something like 'I need to work out my feelings on this', but the way I understand it it's not intended to be taken as a stalker thing.

I think I'll save the 'Is Rem the ultimate waifu, or not' question for after the series, as I started going off on tangents writing it out just now and this shit is long enough as it is.

What I will say is that I think you're right that Rem is showing co-dependent tendencies in the way that her old fixation on her sister seems to have been focused on Subaru, but it also could be that that's because the last time Rem and Ram actually had any interaction was what? Seven episodes ago? With the series as focused as it is on Subaru's perspective and the way it follows him through loops it kind of plays hell on our ability to get accurate reads on the interactions between characters who aren't in-focus at times.

I think what all that leaves me with, is that while some parts of this episode were exasperating, Rem demonstrated the strength of character to refuse something she desperately wanted because she knew it would be settling. Even the co-dependent vibes serve to add depth that are consistent with her character before now. While the birds may have been a bit hokey, this part just a couple minutes later served to really hammer in the 'the dawn has come' atmosphere. Rem exercised her agency in turning Subaru down, and in so doing drove out the darkness that has been Subaru hitting rock bottom over the last few episodes.

I agree that a "supporting cast's night out" with Crusch and Ram and Reinhardt kicking the shit out of, just, all the monsters would be fucking amazing.

And a bonus because I couldn't think of a more clever place to link this.

I'm just gonna end with 'keep at it'. It's worth seeing this through to the end, even though I'm not really wanting to say anything else for spoilers.

[Solid Snake]

It's worth noting before I dive into this headfirst that I actually agree with more of your points than you might anticipate, the nature of this conversation is going to be argumentative and focus on areas of dissension by default but I did find a few of your points convincing enough to lead me to a slightly gentler assessment of Episode 18.

It's also worth mentioning that part of the impetus for my objections to Episode 18 stemmed not from objective criticisms but from a more subjective disappointment that the 'Rem Confession' scene, which I suspected was inevitable from the start, played out quite differently in my head than it did on screen. I actually anticipated that Subaru would reject Rem (at least for now, and despite all my misgivings toward him for making such a stupid decision) but I still expected that I'd really like Rem at the end of it all.

The damage the episode did to my impressions of my favorite character, and how the author wanted to write her and the role he wanted to play, really just set me off down Vitriol Avenue. I think I wanted Rem to show human flaws and act angry or call Subaru out for some of his bullshit regarding his misplaced affections for Emila in a constructive way, and instead I got Angelic Rem with the only humanization to her characterization present in the flaw of codependency, which STILL ends up giving Subaru a pass because her one flaw is all about elevating him beyond his station. Like, in the end, Episode 18's saving grace was Subaru actually being really hard on himself for a change, and had he not criticized himself the episode would have been far, far worse.

Anyway:

1. I think I mentioned this in my Wall, but I actually have no objections to Subaru wanting to run away in the wake of what he's going through. That isn't what I was referencing as 'inconceivably stupid.'

My objection was Subaru trying to entice Rem with what amounted to a "Let's live together / let's get married" style offer. In the context of how long they've known each other (not that long) and how long she's really liked him (even less long), it's just stupid. It's arguably even worse with Subaru confessing mere moments later that he loves Emilia because the offer is unnecessarily deceptive and manipulative on his part. Assuming Rem could have accepted the offer to leave under any circumstance because of her affection for him, merely offering to run away together with her, without all the extraneous fluff, would have been more appropriate given their respective circumstances.

"He's offering Rem what he thinks she wants in exchange for following him." I mean, that's part of the problem! Even in a moment of desperation, Subaru using someone else's romantic interest in him as a bargaining chip doesn't really give me much faith in all in his character's understanding of what love even is.

But, mind you, a large part of my negative reaction to this episode was drawing by my shipping fanboyism instead of any attempt to be objective as a critic. A lot of what I felt 'went wrong' here was the nature of Subaru's offer and Rem's reaction basically presenting the exact conditions where both Subaru's offer itself and Rem acceptance of the offer (as you noted) would be the ethically wrong choice. It felt like the author was giving himself cover to sink the ship with minimal resistance to its sinking. If this conversation had happened in another context it could have been different, and it circumvents, for example, a discussion between Rem and Subaru about the possibility of romance without framing that discussion on the fantasy of running away (after all, they could be a couple and continue to serve Roswaal.)

2. I don't object to Rem buying into the fantasy mentally, privately; I objected to her verbalizing it and losing herself down that rabbit hole for quite a large portion of the episode. It just struck me as unrealistic.
Then again, it's worth noting that despite shipping Rem and Subaru hardcore, I never got the impression Rem's feelings for him at this moment in time were that strong.

As for the "build up to her refusing him," I think a key distinction in our interpretations of Rem's 'rejection' is that you seem to view Rem as making the choice with the conscious knowledge that doing so would terminate the possibility of a relationship with Subaru. That's not how I interpreted it, particularly as Rem herself continues to praise him, declares her love for him and tells him everything she loves about him after her pseudo-'rejection.' I think Rem still indulges in the hope that he'll confess right back to her, and they'll remain some sort of couple in Roswaal's employ. I think that's a fantasy she indulges in as she turns him down and refuses to run.

In terms of agency, I view the unrealistically strong nature of Rem's feelings for Subaru at this juncture as something akin to an erosion of her agency. I'll concede she did choose not to run. But I think her 'choice' in that moment wasn't about valuing her responsibilities to Roswaal and Ram and Emilia over Subaru or making the pragmatic or 'ethical' choice when pressed; I think instead, as she herself elucidates while arguing with him, it's all about preserving her vision of him as the virtuous hero, and preserving the characteristics she finds most attractive in him. If he ran, she'd be confronted with a coward and the fantasy of him in her mind would be harder to maintain.

I also never really got the impression that Rem was much of a 'hopeless romantic' in previous episodes, the codependency argument as pseudo-justification for her harping on Subaru after he 'rescues' her strikes me as more accurate at this juncture. She seems pretty cold, calculating and pragmatic -- even around Subaru post-Episode 11.

"It'd be weirder if she hadn't fantasized given how hard she was crushing."
Again, I have no issue with her fantasizing about him, I just found it unbelievable that she'd go into such absurd amounts of imaginative detail verbally. That's the kind of stuff I wouldn't say to a girlfriend I had been actively dating and courting for several months, and I consider myself a pretty romantic person.

And, sure, she isn't shy, but she's also never been shown to be particularly assertive in pursuing Subaru before this sequence (unless you're counting a confession she makes with her dying breath.) She's been the type before to make comments about how 'kawaii' he is outside of his hearing range, or blush from some of his more lewd or suggestive comments, but she hasn't been like I imagine Crusch would be like. Crusch is the kind of character who I'd believe would see someone she likes and haphazardly throw herself into contention with some blunt, aggressive foreplay (akin to what she does to Subaru, actually, albeit with him specifically I interpreted it as more akin to her abusing his naivete to pull information out of him.)

3. But, you see, I don't think Rem really is refusing Subaru here; she's just refusing a version of Subaru she wouldn't be as attracted to anyway, and she's trying to build Subaru up to continue to fight instead of flee.
That's not her tossing herself out of the Subaru Romance Sweepstakes, though. I think in her mind she's still pretty passionate about wanting to see that happen.

But we're operating on different defintions of 'Rem's agency,' here. You're interpreting 'agency' within the narrow context of, "Is Rem capable of making her own choices or are others making those choices for her?" That's an argument that misses the crucial distinction with fiction; with fictional characters we have an extra layer, as the characters' own decisions are being led by the invisible, unseen hand of an author.

I'm more interested in asking about Rem's agency in the context of: "Is the author of this fictional character writing Rem believably as an independent character with her own goals and objectives, or is she just being written as a kind of a tool or an object with a static, flat personality whose sole purpose is to elevate the protagonist and offer him unconditional support?"

Because to me, in a more meta sense, when you write characters acting as selflessly and as 'angelic' as Rem appears to be here, you're eliminating their agency as unique individuals. If you write characters into positions where they act illogically, that erodes 'agency' in my mind.

Take some snippets from the Geek Feminism Wiki as an example of what I'm talking about:

Agency is the ability for a person, or agent, to act for herself or himself. A person who is not allowed to act for her/himself is lacking in agency, or is said to have been denied agency. In geek circles, women (real and fictional) often lack agency compared to their male counterparts...Fictional female characters who act at the behest of male characters, without any will of their own, lack agency.

Here, from Rem's perspective, Subaru is acting normally in the marketplace when he suddenly and inexplicably has what appears to be a mental breakdown. He grabs her hand and coerces her into running away with him for some time to some abandoned Roman-style ruins, where Subaru then proceeds to try to convince her to grab everything and run away, and not only should they run but if she runs with him he'll marry her and they'll live together. He does so in the context of appearing incredibly mentally unstable.
Mind you, at this juncture we know Rem's crushing pretty hard on Subaru and her interest in him is adorable, but most the times, if your crush suddenly and without explanation makes you this kind of offer and you haven't even dated each other or had a single authentic conversation about your feelings, this is the kind of thing that's going to lead women written capably as actual people to ask all kinds of questions.

Instead, Rem seems intuitively capable of understanding the exact nature of Subaru's suffering, expresses she has no interest (conveniently enough) in prying into the details, then gushes about the fantasy unrealistically before cutting back to reality with the intention not of reminding Subaru of her responsibilities so much as she's interested in reminding Subaru of the traits of his she admires most and how his decision would undermine his own virtue.

Here, she's less an actual human being -- asking the kinds of questions normal human beings would ask, even to someone in clear mental anguish -- and more a prop or a tool of the writer's to solve a jam with Subaru and further Subaru's character development. And that's in direct contrast to the kind of agency Rem actually expressed in previous episodes, where her interactions with Subaru felt a more dynamic give-and-take than this.

That's my opinion, anyway.

4.
"She knows that this isn't what he really wants, he's just at the end of his rope."
Again, my objection here is more centered around putting ourselves in Rem's shoes in that moment and asking ourselves whether it makes sense for a person to react that way given only what she's seen and experienced. Your explanation of her behavior here requires Rem to have made a whole lot of accurate assumptions about Subaru's soul-breaking experiences in other worldlines. From her perspective here, Subaru's been in relative peace and comfort since recovering from the injuries Julius inflicted way back when.

5. So the reason I'm repeating myself often with the points above is that I was rewatching the episode for a second time while writing my commentary and pausing the episode every few minutes to type my thoughts organically during the rewatch. Since I had already watched the episode once prior to that experience, I knew exactly how everything would go down and had a rough idea on what my objections would be, but I ended up typing very similar arguments at certain points as I felt specific lines of dialogue reinforced points I had previously typed.

6. Sorry but I do think it's kind of delusional to verbalize the hypothetical personalities of your children with someone who you haven't even dated yet.
And yeah, Rem goes that far. They're going to be cold and distant as they grow older, apparently! But by your own admission, Rem's fantasies are delusional because Rem herself knows they won't come true (at least in part, possibly, because Subaru doesn't quite feel that way about her.)
It's just not the way writers should write decently fleshed out women characters. Even in the context of her illogical fantasy, Rem's reduced to a doting housewife style figure supporting a man she loves, and his love for her is all she needs, and even long-lasting couples in happy marriages in the real world aren't that lost in a whirlwind of fairy-tale romance that they forfeit their own dreams and ambitions.

8. Every character should have a genuine backstory, even self-inserts, because the irony with self-inserts and their deconstructions is that we can relate to them more and not less when we know more subtle details about them, even if those subtle details don't perfectly match our own IRL experiences.
That's just my two cents though. I understand the underlying logic to leaving Subaru's history empty, I just disagree with it. I don't think it achieves the effect the author intended.

9. Regarding Subaru's flaws, I just really hope you're right.
It just felt like Episode 18 gave into a lot of tropes about the infallibility of the virtuous protagonist that I was hoping Re:Zero would continue to cut down and hack to pieces. The fear may ultimately prove misguided, but in the context of this episode it felt appropriate to raise those concerns.

10. I think we both, at various points in our arguments, fall into the trap of making assumptions for the characters' motivations that we should both probably be avoiding.
Like, in the context of what we watched there's really no way to tell whether Subaru blurts out that he loves Emilia in a spur-of-the-moment reaction at the wrong time that would be insensitive, or whether he's trying to be honest and explicit with her.

And a sidenote: Sure, love can be pretty crazy, but what Subaru feels for Emilia at this juncture is categorically not love. It's lust, it's attraction, it's something he may erroneously perceive as love, but love requires tangible commitment and a degree of intimacy and familiarity that Subaru and Emilia have never had. He's fond of Emilia, he may well really like her, but he doesn't love her. I still don't object to Subaru saying the phrase (particularly now knowing the Japanese he's invoking is a rather weak variant of 'love', and given Subaru's age and immaturity it makes sense he'd fuck this up like Romeo in Shakespeare), I think it's entirely within his characterization to do so, as much as it pains me to type that. But I'm more concerned that Tappei Nagatsuki as the author might genuinely believe that what Subaru feels for Emilia now truly constitutes 'love.'

Aaand by the time I get past your comments on Number 10 I realize you address this directly anyway, and it seems we have similar conclusions on all that.

In the end, I played myself: I bought into a false narrative in my mind about how things would go down and ultimately, a lot of my disappointment over this episode just relates to a wish that it had played out differently, and that Subaru and Rem were written a little differently. Beyond that, though, I have concerns about the future of the series as Episode 18 at least appears to be setting Subaru up for a stereotypical Triumphant Protagonist narrative where he gets his insecurities in perfect order just in time to lead the charge against the baddies, save the day and win Emilia's everlasting affections.
Will that actually happen? Maybe not, but even if it doesn't, it's sort of disappointing for a series that's been so deconstructive to include an episode that plays so many tropes painfully straight.