The Order of the Stick Megathread

[Krylo]

MK's Disjunction can be resisted with a will save, counter spelled etc.

Also, unless the user is a master of shaping, and/or the reality destroying wizard is trying to solo the group--it's probably fucking over the PC's just as badly as that it drops buffs, and destroys magical equipment, but doesn't destroy the wizard's ability to cast more spells, or differentiate between friend or foe.

A party casting it on an epic level mage in closed space would find themselves with all their warrior's suddenly stripped of all magical equipment while the mage just throws out one of a million contigency spells, such as say... time stop, to rebuff and/or obliterate the now defenseless warriors.

It's still a pretty bullshit spell, though.

As for cutting out a tongue--you've got to get there first.

AM field? Can be disjunctioned (at a 1% chance per caster level, a smart epic mage could contingency an AM field to being hit with MK's Disjunction, thus significantly reducing its chances to affect him), and there are certain spells that still work within AM fields. An epic mage could, and would most likely, have a teleport or portal spell designed to work in AM fields, for instance.

Smarty's GM just sucked balls at designing spell lists for epic mages.

Edit: And Xykon has stated he doesn't WANT to destroy reality. He wants to conquer it.

[EVILNess]

Originally Posted by tacticslion

Plus, much like Xykon, Reality-Destroying wizards rarely simply want to destroy reality. I mean, look at EVILness! He wants to destroy reality, sure, but only so it can be rewritten in his very image! That takes not only power, but class! And EVILness! Point being, you gotta do these things right, and a Hold Portal could be just the kind of minor "annoyance" that saves the universe. Also, Smarty's reply is more eloquent, I just like using words.

I will keep this in mind, however, I keep a holster of wands, bandoleer of scrolls, and a charm bracelet where each charm can memorize a level 2 or less spell and cast it at will.

Not to mention a knock spell would have totally have negated the entire scenario.

[tacticslion]

krylo, my friend, my rebuttle! Others may feel free to read, but its rules minutae.

Originally Posted by Krylo

MK's Disjunction can be resisted with a will save, counter spelled etc.

Granted, but saves are always iffy at best - natural twenty (a 5% chance) will auto-succeed while a natural one (also a 5% chance) will always fail. In between, it entirely revolves around the mage's wisdom score and the opposing mage's intelligence score. Powerful mages often have protection against all sorts of crap that attacks them where they are weak and strong, but those defenses target specific assaults, and its impossible to cover everything. Plus M's Disjunction doesn't easily fit into one of those "I'mma gotta better save/resistance/etc vs. this t'ing now" that most effects work on.

Originally Posted by Krylo

Also, unless the user is a master of shaping, and/or the reality destroying wizard is trying to solo the group--it's probably fucking over the PC's just as badly as that it drops buffs, and destroys magical equipment, but doesn't destroy the wizard's ability to cast more spells, or differentiate between friend or foe.

Yeeessss... but the burst of M-Dis can be targeted anywhere that a caster can see, and I'm thinking that setting it at the appropriate spot in most cases will net you your target without hitting everyone else in the party. Most mages - even epic ones - know to stay well enough back from melee, and a carefully placed spell can hit them without hitting everyone else.

Originally Posted by Krylo

A party casting it on an epic level mage

Meh? We don't know that he/she/it was epic. Could have simply been near to it. Seriously: I can become a god (literally, by RAW) by ninth level (twelth if the GM is really pushy) with magic users, so I'm pretty certain that high-level non-epic casters can do some pretty serious stuff, especially if they have a time/place/location that is favorable to them.

Originally Posted by Krylo

AM field? Can be disjunctioned (at a 1% chance per caster level, a smart epic mage could contingency an AM field to being hit with MK's Disjunction, thus significantly reducing its chances to affect him), and there are certain spells that still work within AM fields. An epic mage could, and would most likely, have a teleport or portal spell designed to work in AM fields, for instance.

Yeah, but the thing is? Disjunction can't be cast from within an AM field. Contengencies work (to the best of my memory) presuming the caster of the contengency is the caster of the spell - meaning the origin-point. You can't cast an M-Dis from within a A-M field, because you can't access the magic to get the M-Dis running, unless I'm misreading the rules (which I admit I might be - it seems open to interpretation). Besides, even if you could, a 1% chance isn't that much - most epic mages would get a 21%-30% chance of getting out of a field like that. That's only slightly more likely than rolling a natural twenty. Plus, unlike M-Dissing an artifact, you can't artificially boost your caster level from within an AM field because: you're in an AM field, and it will annul the boosts you'd otherwise get.

Originally Posted by Krylo

Edit: And Xykon has stated he doesn't WANT to destroy reality. He wants to conquer it.

Originally Posted by tacticslion

Plus, much like Xykon, Reality-Destroying wizards rarely simply want to destroy reality. I mean, look at EVILness! He wants to destroy reality, sure, but only so it can be rewritten in his very image!

(emphasis added) "Conquering", in the case of gaining all the power of the Snarl, is the same as "Destroying" - the power of deletion to anything that he doesn't happen to like.

Originally Posted by Krylo

Smarty's GM just sucked balls at designing spell lists for epic mages.

Maybe? But why does that bother you guys? Someone you've never interacted with didn't design a non-player character up to your specifications? So, you'd prefer, if I ever played a game with you as GM, that I run roughshod over all your plans, use my mage to gain Real Ultimate Power by ninth level, and recreate all of reality into my own image, just because I can, screw the other players? Or alternatively, if I were GM I should have my Ultimate Baddy insta-scry on the pissant first level adventurers, figure "one day, these will be the ones that kill me", teleport in, slaughter them all in a TPK, just because that's moderately viable given the rules? Should GM's jobs be to utterly destroy everything the characters work for?

No: the idea of a cooperative game such as DnD is that characters try to use their wits and tools-at-hand to outsmart the bad guys (such as reality-destroying wizards) and get "the job" (whatever that is) done. Sure the GM needs to make it challenging, but not impossible. Arbitrarily bypassing the players' abilities because a wizard could under certain circumstances isn't good GMing - it is, in fact, the opposite.

To give an example and bring it back to the comic: why hasn't Xykon specifically hunted down and killed the pissant Order? Because they weren't a threat initially, and now that they are he's busy trying to get his other projects going, such as reaquiring the potential power they took away from him the first time. He's an epic mage - and an immortal lich. And he's still busy. He also happens to be lazy, grasping, manipulative, and much, much smarter than most give him credit for. Yet he still doesn't have the time or resources to cover the planet and instantly recreate it to his whim (which effectively destroys his reality in order to recreate/conquer it). Could he do more? Sure. But dare I say, most all of us could as well. When I had a job*(my job was downsized, but I still go to school, and its a similar principle) I didn't spend 18 hours a day working every day because a) I'd get bored and start to lose my enthusiasm, b) I don't want to anyway, even though I liked my work (and like my schooling).

EVILness, you're cool, but don't be too proud of this technilogical terror - er, magical items you've created. Pride before the fall and all that.

Originally Posted by EVILNess

I will keep this in mind, however, I keep a holster of wands, bandoleer of scrolls, and a charm bracelet where each charm can memorize a level 2 or less spell and cast it at will.

Not to mention a knock spell would have totally have negated the entire scenario.

Yes, and you're better at what you're doing than most GMs. But you've yet to annul all of reality, even though you've (in order): conquered most of the world, created planar bleeds on unimaginable scales, broken the adventuring party that was dedicated to defeating you (mentally) and recreated them as a weapon and tool in your hand, and set up devices to protect you and your chosen few from your the doom you've inflicted on the rest of the world. You have the most advanced and powerful forces in the world at your beck and call, have the greatest manpower, and the mightiest of magic. You've got the most resources, and all the information you need. But it's still taking time. Also, you've been assassinated (successfully) once already. Do you suck just because you got beaten once? By no means. The other players were good - they outsmarted you - once. And that was all it took. That's what I'm saying: even you, with all you've got, have limits, like any reality-destroying mage.

I'm just kind of surprised at the apparent rancor here. In response to one person's dis on a spell, Smarty mentioned (jovially) he saved reality with it in a campaign. Everyone immediately was all like "d00d, jour Dee-Emm 1z t3h suxx0rs, d4t c4n't h4pp3n!shut up, that's not how it works", when, in his game, it was exactly what was needed to delay the ultimate baddy long enough to defeat the mage. Seriously! Just because it's not "likely" to you, doesn't mean it's impossible or even poorly designed.

To use an overly-specific example, here's one, if you careit would be kind of like someone playing a dwarven ranger (strength of 18) specializing in (and wielding) the Urgrosh, rolling a critical hit in their game by rolling two natural 20s, rolling maximum damage (total of 50 or 66 damage, depending on your interpretation of the rules), the Big Bad fails its save against Massive Damage by rolling a natural 1 and instantly being killed. Afterwards, the player tells others about it, and everyone else going "shut up, your DM sucks because he didn't give his big bad damage reduction!" (even though the Big Bad wasn't a barbarian or a dwarven defender). That's kind of rediculous. Heck, it'd take a regular tenth level NPC Barbarian, Fighter, or Paladin to avoid dying just because they recieved 50 damage total (ignoring the Death from Massive Damage rule), and a twentieth level wizard.

If Smarty comes in and says, "oh, well, he had all 59 or so* (on average 21st-25th level sun elf or drow wizard with maximum intelligence boosts) of his daily spells left for the day, but none of them would be usable against a door", then we'd know something was odd... unless the process the GM found and used to grant Reality-Destroying Power happened to require 59 or so specific spells in precise sequence, in which case using one on that particular day would have thwarted him for a time. After that, who can say what would have occurred? Only that GM. We might have constructed it differently, but we didn't. And that spell is now forever proved useful to Smarty. Also, any further discussion on this topic (which would be fine with me, I'm enjoying) should probably go on this thread, as it's getting harder to stay on topic with OotS.

[Krylo]

Originally Posted by tacticslion

Yeeessss... but the burst of M-Dis can be targeted anywhere that a caster can see

Range is close, so not so much.

Maybe? But why does that bother you guys?

Doesn't. Just kind of annoying that because of this Smarty has the idea that mages are 'pussies' and pointless antagonists.

So, you'd prefer, if I ever played a game with you as GM, that I run roughshod over all your plans, use my mage to gain Real Ultimate Power by ninth level, and recreate all of reality into my own image, just because I can, screw the other players? Or alternatively, if I were GM I should have my Ultimate Baddy insta-scry on the pissant first level adventurers, figure "one day, these will be the ones that kill me", teleport in, slaughter them all in a TPK, just because that's moderately viable given the rules? Should GM's jobs be to utterly destroy everything the characters work for?

Nope, but if you're GM I'd like it if fighting the campaign's big bad didn't amount to casting hold portal on a door.

Sure the GM needs to make it challenging

Emphasis mine.

Arbitrarily bypassing the players' abilities because a wizard could under certain circumstances isn't good GMing - it is, in fact, the opposite.

A GM has access to the character sheets, they shouldn't have to do it arbitrarily. They shouldn't even have to use OOC knowledge unless this is the first time the mage has ever met the party.

They should be able to make the mage capable of bypassing any player abilities that would result in turning what should be an 'epic battle' into "I cast disjunction, lawl I win."

The latter isn't fun.

To give an example and bring it back to the comic: why hasn't Xykon specifically hunted down and killed the pissant Order? Because they weren't a threat initially, and now that they are he's busy trying to get his other projects going, such as reaquiring the potential power they took away from him the first time. He's an epic mage - and an immortal lich. And he's still busy. He also happens to be lazy, grasping, manipulative, and much, much smarter than most give him credit for. Yet he still doesn't have the time or resources to cover the planet and instantly recreate it to his whim (which effectively destroys his reality in order to recreate/conquer it). Could he do more? Sure. But dare I say, most all of us could as well. When I had a job*(my job was downsized, but I still go to school, and its a similar principle) I didn't spend 18 hours a day working every day because a) I'd get bored and start to lose my enthusiasm, b) I don't want to anyway, even though I liked my work (and like my schooling).

On the other hand, the Order hasn't defeated him with any single spell.

Much less hold portal. If Xykon was defeated because he was rushing to his phylactery and they stuck a hold portal on the door, that'd piss off a good amount of readers, because it wouldn't be a good final confrontation. It'd also leave the end of an actual RP feeling completely empty once the "Haha, I killed you with hold portal" wore off, as they realized the guy they struggled against so long was a schmuck.

...Though such WOULD fit perfectly into Clevinger's work.

[BitVyper]

Isn't the kind of disjunction being discussed already an epic spell? I mean, I know there's a non-epic disjunction, but it's a lot less powerful. Epic spells are hard to get ahold of, and they're not exactly the sort of thing you can just try over and over again.

Also if you cast hold portal to stop Xykon, he'd just rip the door off its hinges. We've already seen him smack V around with a section of stone wall.

A vanilla wizard whose magic has been disabled and who is alone may be screwed, but a lich? Liches have abilities that can't be countered by antimagic fields. They also have DR that you ain't bypassing once you walk into said field and your godslaying sword loses all its power and starts doing 1d8+5.

I can become a god (literally, by RAW) by ninth level (twelth if the GM is really pushy) with magic users

If you become a god by twelfth level, your GM either isn't being pushy enough, or he's just running a very high power campaign (which there's nothing wrong with).

[tacticslion]

Originally Posted by Krylo

On the other hand, the Order hasn't defeated him with any single spell.

Nope, just an angry fighter flinging his helpless bony self into a massive uber-destruction icon with no real battle or struggle whatsoever. Also, by sitting passivly by while someone else did it. To respond to the other things (DnD specific stuff) I'll do so later (tomorrow) in the other forum for such things. I'll edit the link in later.

[BitVyper]

Nope, just an angry fighter flinging his helpless bony self into a massive uber-destruction icon with no real battle or struggle whatsoever.

Yeah, that wasn't entirely situational, requiring of a huge plot device, and largely a result of Xykon holding back as he usually does or anything.

[tacticslion]

Originally Posted by Krylo

On the other hand, the Order hasn't defeated him with any single spell. Much less hold portal. If Xykon was defeated because he was rushing to his phylactery and they stuck a hold portal on the door, that'd piss off a good amount of readers, because it wouldn't be a good final confrontation. It'd also leave the end of an actual RP feeling completely empty once the "Haha, I killed you with hold portal" wore off, as they realized the guy they struggled against so long was a schmuck.

Partially I don't understand your specific example (sorry), but from what I do understand, I'd counter: he is a schmuck! ... just a very smart one that you shouldn't under-estimate.

Originally Posted by Krylo

...Though such WOULD fit perfectly into Clevinger's work.

Too true.

Originally Posted by BitVyper

Yeah, that wasn't entirely situational, requiring of a huge plot device, and largely a result of Xykon holding back as he usually does or anything.

This feeds into characterizations, typical arrogance, and other common elements to super-high wizards of nigh-impregnable power. I discuss why it should work, and indeed boil down most of our arguments on this thread, though I warn you, I talk WAY too much and have entirely too high opinion of myself in it.

[Jagos]

In other news the Empress is a lazy git with no brains except cow to keep her occupied. Holy...

[Arhra]

The Empress is a lady who knows what she likes.

I wouldn't be surprised if there's more to her than meets the eye (as incredible as that may seem).