"Doctor Who" or "Fallacies Therof" [POTENTIAL RISK OF SPOILERS WITHIN]

[BloodyMage]

Bit of both really.

[Fifthfiend]

Originally Posted by synkr0nized

don't like Donna

Originally Posted by synkr0nized

I do hope we can all agree that Rory is the best, though.

THE ONLY PEACE WITH DONNA-HATERS IS THE PEACE OF THE GRAVE

[Nique]

Originally Posted by rpg

For everyone going, "SHE'S WAY DIFFERENT AND TOTALLY NOT AS COOL AND MYSTERIOUS AND STUFF AS OLD RIVER, AND WAY LESS INDEPENDENTLY BETTER THAN THE DOCTOR", I think that's the point. She and The Doctor meet backwards, so it makes sense that as we see more of her, she seems less competent and The Doctor more so..

No, it's not that young River is less accomplished or less cool than older River. Like, that's not it at all. It's that, based on the last episode, the entire character relies on the Doctor in a way that makes her decidedly less interesting and less believable as someone who grows to be an equal of the Doctor.

However naive they show her in her early life is fine, but her motivation for everything awesome we've seen her do in the show from Silence in the Library up until now is based on her obsession with the Doctor. Now, it's entirely possible that they will continue to round out the character to give her more of the substance that I've been expecting, but they crammed a LOT of her backstory into this episode and as it stands I don't care for it.

Originally Posted by Bloodymage

....so this pre-dates her prison sentence.

I don't think so... We meet River at the "end" of her life in the Library episodes. As you said; She mentions the Byzantium, Asgard etc. Those things occur either during or shortly after her prison sentence (in fact, the Byzantium episode implies that this mission was going towards her earning a pardon). Also, she is not yet a professor during those instances, whereas she is in the library.


As near as I can figure, River Song's timeline goes as follows:


"A Good Man Goes to War"
In the early 52nd century Amy gives birth to her and Rory's daughter, Melody Pond, while being held captive in Demons Run by the Church and their partners, The Headless Monks, who are being directed by the religious order known as 'The Silence' as mentioned in 'Let's Kill Hitler'. The Silence are possibly responsible for the cracks in the universe from series 5.

Melody is, due to being conceived on the TARDIS, part Time Lord. Melody is replaced by a ganger briefly while being kidnapped by Madame Kovarian to become a weapon against the Doctor.

"The Impossible Astronaut"/"Day of the Moon"
In the 1960s, a little girl in a space suit/life support unit is being held by an alien race who are, ostensibly, associated with The Silence. This girl makes attempts to contact U.S. President Nixon and encounters Amy Pond. The girl somehow appears in 1970s New York City. Hurt or sick, she begins to regenerate. From what we later learn of her, it is clear that this girl is, indeed, Melody Pond.

"Let's Kill Hitler"
From the 1970s to 2011, after regenerating as a toddler in New York, Melody somehow comes to England to become Rory and Amy's childhood friend. Due to her mother's encounter with The Doctor and her own conditioning/brainwashing, Melody develops anti-social, possibly psychopathic, tendencies and an obsession with The Doctor. Traveling back to 1938 Berlin, she regenerates into her current form, played by Alex Kingston. Melody has been conditioned by The Silence to kill the Doctor and attempts to do so with poison. The religious order known as 'The Silence', as well as their war against The Doctor, is mentioned. FOR POORLY EXPLAINED REASONS, Melody saves the Doctor with her regeneration energy, permanently losing her ability to regenerate. The Doctor takes Melody/River back to a hospital in the early 52nd century and gives her a blank, blue diary. River later enrolls to study archaeology in 5123, a skill she later uses to contact and possibly track down The Doctor.

UPDATES!

"Closing Time"-
Doctor Song is kidnapped and timeported back to Utah 2011 to fulfill her mission to kill the Doctor


"The Impossible Astronaut"/"Day of the Moon"
In 2011, Utah, a person appears in a spacesuit and kills an 1100+ year old Doctor. 'Let's Kill Hitler' seems to confirm that this is in fact River Song.

?????????????
It is unclear how much of their relationship River experienced prior to killing him in 2011, if any at all. It stands to reason that they would have the time and freedom to explore a relationship with each other prior to The Doctor's murder, as River would not have been imprisoned in Stormcage or been plagued by a sense of guilt. However, it is not clear at this point if River is fully capable to overcome her conditioned initiative to kill The Doctor. If not, this would make a relationship prior (from her perspective) to his death difficult, at best.

UPDATE - Per "Closing Time" It seems that the majority of their relationship does indeed take place after River kills the Doctor

"The Impossible Astronaut"/"Day of the Moon"
At Stormcage in the mid-to-late 51st century, River is being held for killing 'the best man she's ever known' (as she later states at the crash of the Byzantium). River along with Rory and Amy have been contacted by an 1100+ year old version of the Doctor to convene in the state of Utah in 2011. According to their diaries, River has had a number of experiences with this version of The Doctor, including an encounter with 'Jim The Fish'. River does not seem worried about the time or place that they are in, so it is not entirely clear if she is able to clearly remember the experience of murdering The Doctor.

This future version of The Doctor is murdered in front of River, Rory and Amy. River attempts to shoot the attacker (her younger self) and fails, an outcome which she seems to expect as she whispers 'No, of course not'. The group then encounters the current, 900 year old, version of the Doctor - still alive and unaware of his fate. River forces Amy and Rory to remain silent regarding the Doctor's future death so as not to corrupt his time stream, and comments on her fear of one day encountering an even earlier version of the Doctor at a time when he does not know who she is.

The four travel back to 1960 where, over the course of months, they track a group of aliens who are associated with The Silence alongside members of the FBI. River later kills a number of these aliens with her blaster gun, and the remaining aliens are revealed via broadcast of the moon landing to the population. This foils at least part of their plan. River is returned to Stormcage at the end of this episode where her and the Doctor share a kiss - his first with her and, possibly, she seems to fear, her last with him. Her reaction to this at least implies that the much of The Doctor and River's relationship has already occurred from her perspective. However it is indicated in later episodes that River's future self still has many encounters with the Doctor (her Birthday on the River Thames in 1814 for example).

"A Good Man Goes to War"
Taking place in the early 52nd century at Demons Run, River arrives in her own past after her younger self is kidnapped to reveal to her identity as Melody Pond to The Doctor and her Parents. It is possible that this happens, from River's perspective, very shortly after the events of 'Day of the Moon', as she is here wearing a very similar outfit to the one worn at the end of that episode.

"The Pandorica Opens"/"The Big Bang"
In the 51st or 52nd century, River is still being held at the Stormcage Containment Facility. River escapes after being contacted by Winston Churchill regarding a crisis surrounding The Doctor, and so leads the Doctor to 102 A.D. to meet her. Eventually traveling to 1996, River assists the Doctor in closing the crack in the universe*. The Doctor is, briefly, erased from time. River's whereabouts after this are unknown, though she may possibly have been returned to Stormcage.

At the end of these episodes, taking place in 2010, River arrives at her parent's wedding and reminds Amy of the Doctor, bringing him back into existence. She tells the Doctor that he will soon learn the truth about her, after which 'everything changes'. This is an event has already occurred from her perspective, taking place at the end of 'A Good Man Goes to War'.

*The Silence are likely responsible for the 'cracks' in the universe featured in series 5 - River's experience with The Silence up to this point in her timeline may have something to do with her involvement in the events of 'The Big Bang'.

"A Good Man Goes to War"
On an unspecified date in the 51st or 52nd century during River Song's incarceration in Stormcage. It is implied here that The Doctor and River are still in regular contact. Rory and River have the following exchange;

River: “It’s my birthday. The Doctor took me ice skating on the River Thames in 1814 – the last of the great frost fairs. He got Stevie Wonder to sing for me under London Bridge.”
Rory: “Stevie Wonder sang in 1814?”
River: "Yes. But you must never tell him."

Here Rory attempts to solicit River Song's assistance in their search for Amy. River begrudgingly refuses to accompany them, having already experienced the events at Demons Run*;

River: "This is the Battle of Demon's Run. The Doctor's darkest hour. He'll rise higher than ever before and then fall so much further. And I can't be with him until the very end."
Rory: "Why not?"
River: "Because this is it. This is the day he finds out who I am."

*It is possible, though unlikely, that this version of River pre-dates the one featured at the end of 'Day of the Moon' since River's sadness over her and The Doctor's last kiss in that episode may have indicated the end of their romance from her perspective. A younger version of River could, conceivably, possess limited knowledge of her own future and thus be aware of her adult self's presence at Demons Run. It seems more likely, however, that this version of River has already experienced this event.

"The Time of Angels"/"Flesh and Stone"
Doctor River Song encounters The Doctor, his first time seeing her since regenerating into his eleventh form, and Amy's first time meeting River (as opposed to 'Mels'), from their perspective. The Doctor is aware that River Song is someone important from his future, Amy suspects that River becomes the Doctor's wife. At the end of 'Flesh and Stone', River reveals to The Doctor that she is imprisoned in Stormcage for killing "the best man she had ever known". River may be working with the Church* in order to earn a pardon or release from this sentence.

*As the Church seems willing to work with The Doctor here, it may imply that they have not yet joined The Silence and The Headless Monks as they will in the 52nd century.

??????????
Beyond the fact that she is freed from Stormcage, becomes a professor, and has further interactions with the Doctor, it is unknown what exactly happens to River up until 'Silence in the Library'. Especially confusing is the time frame in which River Song lives. She is incarcerated and released from Stormcage during the mid 51st century as well as the 52nd century. Even more confusing is the fact that after River's release, she is active in the 50th century when the 'Silence in the Library' takes place.

Since River will recognize the tenth Doctor's appearance, this may imply that she will receive a visit from the tenth Doctor at some point before her experience with him in the Library. Though this is never seen on air, they may have had a brief encounter when the tenth Doctor manages to visit old companions during the early stages of his regeneration cycle. At some point after Stormcage, River acquires a Sonic Screwdriver from the Doctor when he takes her to see the singing towers of Darillium.

"Silence in the Library"/"Forest of the Dead"
In the 50th century Professor Song encounters the Tenth Doctor, their first meeting from his perspective - An event 'foreshadowed' by River during 'The Impossible Astronaut'. River claims to be someone that The Doctor will come to trust completely. River Song nearly dies but is kept alive in the virtual reality of the Library's computer system.


Source: Wikipedia and Youtube, mostly.

[BloodyMage]

Originally Posted by Nique

I don't think so... We meet River at the "end" of her life in the Library episodes. As you said; She mentions the Byzantium, Asgard etc. Those things occur either during or shortly after her prison sentence (in fact, the Byzantium episode implies that this mission was going towards her earning a pardon). Also, she is not yet a professor during those instances, whereas she is in the library.

I get that, really, I do. River Song even states at one point that she fears the time she meets a Doctor who doesn't know her. However, the library exhibition wasn't, as you said of the Byzantium crash, a means for a pardon, it was externally funded by someone other than the university or endorsed by Stormcage. So why exactly would he hire a criminal? A professor sure, but a criminal none the less that he couldn't trust.

I will admit however, a lot of this comes from my distrust of the ending to the Forest of the Dead. Why bother with the chip in the sonic screwdriver to upload her? Was it so bad for her to die and vanish, but she now exists eternally in CAL's data system? It seems like the sort of thing the Doctor might do in case something went wrong. So I don't trust it. I don't think that's her genuine end.

[Nique]

The fact that she is a Professor in the 50th century where she was in jail during the 51st century may have something to do with the fact that she is a free woman. Her timeline is all kinds of messed up.

[Nique]

Hmm. The Doctor Who Site seems to disagree with my timeline.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Pffft what do they know

[Professor Smarmiarty]

I don't know what has happened to Amy's head but I suspect she has eaten too many lemons. Her head was small and yellow this episode.

[BloodyMage]

Did Rory forget all of his adventures thus far in this episode? He went around acting like all of this was impossible after he'd faced the end of the world, been made of plastic, lived for centuries, and seen Amy bring the Doctor back into existence by pure memory. George's father seemed to believe faster than he did :/

[Kim]

Well that episode was pretty boring. First half hour just dragged on and on and the end was only kinda interesting but mostly shrug. Next episode looks better.