A conversation about conversations about bigotry - Page 9

Solid Snake · 07-29-2012, 11:25 PM

...Why do I miss all the fun threads, everyone
Why do I miss all the fun threads

Loyal · 07-30-2012, 12:03 AM

I was wondering how you would find something like this fun but then I remember you're a lawyer now.

And then I found my question answered before it was even asked.

greed · 07-30-2012, 12:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nique

Actually I'd be willing to bet that this is still a pretty good place in terms of internet forums if we're comparing it to other places.

Like the whole 'oh god npf is just blah whateverthingIdon'tlikethisweek' is kinda dumb because we can all very easily make it NOT that.

Basically, I ducked into the Escapist forum a few days ago and oh holy god. As irritating as NPF can be at times it is still one of the better forums on the net.

Nique · 07-30-2012, 12:36 AM

See guys; An endorsement by greed. What more could you ask for?

Solid Snake · 07-30-2012, 01:05 AM

Actually Loyal it's basically just that I'm getting wasted tonight and everything is fun by virtue of alcohol.

Additional Snake Tipsy Almost-Drunk Rant That Goes Nowhere!!!
(Don't expect this to make sense because I'm tipsy and nearing drunkeness and weeeeee)

I'm sick and tired of people singling out Liz when criticizing the 'aggressive tone' of serious NPF discussions or whatever-the-fucks when, in reality, what we really should be complaining about, if anything, is the 'aggressive tone' that literally every single one of us who's ever had an opinion in an NPF Discussion topic has taken at one point or another. I'm not even convinced Liz does it more than anyone else here, if anything it's more that Liz has done so at a couple moments that were more controversial or more memorable. And that's likely because Liz is concerned with issues like privilege and discrimination and touchy issues like gender and race and sexuality, while many of the rest of us resort to ugly vitriol over less genuinely disconcerting subjects.

And, if this really was just all about Liz? Like, if Pip or other people who've threatened to quit really were just thinking of quitting solely because Liz drove them to insanity? I'm pretty sure there's an Ignore User function here, or some rough equivalent to it; that's what it'd be used for. Or, hell, take it up privately with the Mods.

Saddling the baggage of your departure on the community at large -- and name-dropping the individual you want to publicly hold responsible for your voluntary exit -- really seems to suggest a desire to incite the community to dislike the person you dislike through conjuring manufactured melodrama.

When there are, in fact, far better ways for you to deal with whatever frustration you're feeling -- starting with, for example, simply leaving without pointing fingers for a few days, catching your breath, collecting your thoughts and regaining your composure through the passage of time.

But, back to the original point: We've all basically been assholes at one point or another on this message board because it's an anonymous internet message board. All of us. ...Well, okay, maybe just most of us.

We're not close friends, family members, coworkers, or other individuals from whom you should expect to receive personal validation regardless of your behavior or the credibility of what you say or how you act. That degree of loyalty and devotion generally doesn't manifest in the context of an online community where you can't reasonably infer such basic, fundamental stepping stones in interpersonal relationships as one's tone of voice. We're a bunch of random fans of a webcomic who've never met each other in person before, and subsequently conversations here tend to be less intimate and more quarrelsome. In practice, we tend to have the intellectual conversations about politics and religion and sex and culture without worrying quite as much as we might in real life about how the other participants in said conversation feel.

(There may be specific exceptions of individual NPFers who you have that kind of a close bond with -- I'd like to imagine there are some individuals here who fit that rough description for me -- but they're the exception, not the rule, and it's certainly within the discretion of people to choose whether or not they want to be the close friend who will support you unconditionally, or the intellectual critic who understands that their hostility will not endear them to you as a 'best friend' but who will instead aggressively critique arguments you advance and consider the validity or 'correctness' of said intellectual positions more important than your friendship. Again, to summarize: If Liz -- or anyone else -- values you 'being right on important issues like feminism / sexism / homophobia in society' more important than earning 'your feelings' or 'your friendship' or even 'your respect,' that is Liz's choice, not yours. Of course, it's entirely in the NPF Moderators' prerogative to decide if that stance leads to Liz being moderated. But, generally speaking, if the idea of engaging with someone like Liz who values your individual arguments positions more than your overall integrity or character upsets you, that's probably a good sign that serious Discussion conversations about topics like racism and misogyny and homophobia are ones you should avoid, and in an effort to avoid conjuring said topics, you should probably also avoid posting content that may, however inadvertently, offend said oppressed minority groups and crap, I'm losing my train of thought.)

Nothing posted should be interpreted as an argument against civility, insofar as I think every and any online community should strive for that, and Moderators are 100% in the right to attempt to rigidly enforce that, but this is an argument against the tried and true practice of deflecting valid intellectual criticism under the pretense that some tiny portion of it is personally 'offensive' insofar as it does not presume you have the pure heart and pristine motives of an angel.

We should not have to preface arguments made in this thread with, "X, you're a great person and I really like you and you shouldn't interpret any of this commentary in response to your brazenly racist / misogynistic / homophobic / transphobic post as a direct insult on your character, your contributions to society or your value as a human being, because I know that by mere virtue of your existence as a human being and your presence on NPF and past association with politically liberal beliefs and concepts that you are likely not actively or overtly intending to behave as a racist / misogynist / homophobic / transphobic individual, but..."

That would be stupid.

Holy shit I hate this post already so I'm going to end it.
I think the thing that pisses me most off about tipsy-Snake is that the inclination to write Walls is just as prevalent as with Sober-Snake, only the filter's gone, meaning that if you hated Snake's Walls before, handing Snake a bit of alcohol will not fix your problems.

THE END!!!!

Aldurin · 07-30-2012, 01:06 AM

I want to start a support group for your keyboard, Snake. It's gotta be rough being banged on relentlessly for results that are already prefaced with "Hey this is more likely than not a waste of your time to read".

***Fenris*** · 07-30-2012, 01:11 AM

Snake

Snake

Snake

I read all of your post

do you understand

this is a personal best for me

also it was a very good post, I liked it. would read it again. not right now though

Solid Snake · 07-30-2012, 01:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aldurin

I want to start a support group for your keyboard, Snake. It's gotta be rough being banged on relentlessly for results that are already prefaced with "Hey this is more likely than not a waste of your time to read".

I was actually just about to edit my post with the realization that about 90% of what tipsy-Snake just typed really applies to sober-Snake more than anyone else on this forum, meaning that all I really just accomplished wasn't just wasting all of your times but also effectively amounted to my alcohol afflicted self lecturing my alcohol free self out loud in front of a mirror in everyone elses presence in a way that is pretty crazy

But then you typed this, and now I'm just overwhelmed with the desire to give you a finger. Hint: It is not my ring finger or index finger. Guess away

Aldurin · 07-30-2012, 01:15 AM

You know, you could just rep me instead of using so many words to say "THUMBS UP, BRO!"

Like, this is why your keyboard needs to file for abuse.

Thadius · 07-30-2012, 01:18 AM

Actually Snake, and this may come as a surprise to you...

I enjoyed that wall of text.

It explained quite a bit, really, about this online community we have here.

It also explained why I hate Liz focusing on those issues so much.

Ever since I was old enough to grasp the concept, I was raised better than to differentiate between people based on physical differences. I was taught that someone with a difference in their skin tone does not mean that I cannot be friends with them.

Odd, really, considering I can count on one hand the amount of people that are physically different from me in that department that I count as friends.

Gender was no barrier, race was no barrier, age was no barrier. I was a happy, healthy child, who wanted to be friends with everyone, regardless of any differences.

I've matured a bit, but I've not lost the teachings of my parents.

Liz focusing on the fact that people discriminate based on those things angers me, and I finally pinned down why.

It's not that Liz is posting those things. It's that those things still exist for Liz to post about.

I know that not everyone is like me. Not everyone is capable of seeing past physical differences, looking at what a person is before judging them.

One day, it may come to pass, that racism and bigotry and sexism die out in the world.

They certainly have in my heart.

07-29-2012, 11:25 PM	#81
Solid Snake Erotic Esquire Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 5,563	...Why do I miss all the fun threads, everyone Why do I miss all* the fun threads* __________________ *WARNING:* Snek's all up in this thread. Be prepared to read massive walls of text.

07-30-2012, 01:05 AM	#85
Solid Snake Erotic Esquire Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 5,563	Actually Loyal it's basically just that I'm getting wasted tonight and everything is fun by virtue of alcohol. *Additional Snake Tipsy Almost-Drunk Rant That Goes Nowhere!!!* (Don't expect this to make sense because I'm tipsy and nearing drunkeness and weeeeee) I'm sick and tired of people singling out Liz when criticizing the 'aggressive tone' of serious NPF discussions or whatever-the-fucks when, in reality, what we *really* should be complaining about, if anything, is the 'aggressive tone' that literally every single one of us who's ever had an opinion in an NPF Discussion topic has taken at one point or another. I'm not even convinced Liz does it *more* than anyone else here, if anything it's more that Liz has done so at a couple moments that were more controversial or more memorable. And that's likely because Liz is concerned with issues like privilege and discrimination and touchy issues like gender and race and sexuality, while many of the rest of us resort to ugly vitriol over less genuinely disconcerting subjects. And, if this really was just all about Liz? Like, if Pip or other people who've threatened to quit really were just thinking of quitting solely because Liz drove them to insanity? I'm pretty sure there's an Ignore User function here, or some rough equivalent to it; that's what it'd be used for. Or, hell, take it up privately with the Mods. Saddling the baggage of your departure on the community at large -- and name-dropping the individual you want to publicly hold responsible for your voluntary exit -- really seems to suggest a desire to incite the community to dislike the person you dislike through conjuring manufactured melodrama. When there are, in fact, far better ways for you to deal with whatever frustration you're feeling -- *starting with,* for example, simply leaving without pointing fingers for a few days, catching your breath, collecting your thoughts and regaining your composure through the passage of time. But, back to the original point: We've all basically been assholes at one point or another on this message board because it's an anonymous internet message board. *All* of us. ...Well, okay, maybe just most of us. We're not close friends, family members, coworkers, or other individuals from whom you should expect to receive personal validation regardless of your behavior or the credibility of what you say or how you act. That degree of loyalty and devotion generally doesn't manifest in the context of an online community where you can't reasonably infer such basic, fundamental stepping stones in interpersonal relationships as one's tone of voice. We're a bunch of random fans of a webcomic who've never met each other in person before, and subsequently conversations here tend to be less intimate and more quarrelsome. In practice, we tend to have the intellectual conversations about politics and religion and sex and culture without worrying quite as much as we might in real life about how the other participants in said conversation feel. (There may be specific exceptions of individual NPFers who you have that kind of a close bond with -- I'd like to imagine there are some individuals here who fit that rough description for me -- but they're the exception, not the rule, and it's certainly within the discretion of people to *choose* whether or not they want to be the close friend who will support you unconditionally, or the intellectual critic who understands that their hostility will not endear them to you as a 'best friend' but who will instead aggressively critique arguments you advance and consider the validity or 'correctness' of said intellectual positions more important than your friendship. Again, to summarize: If Liz -- or anyone else -- values you 'being *right* on important issues like feminism / sexism / homophobia in society' more important than earning 'your feelings' or 'your friendship' or even 'your respect,' that is Liz's choice, not yours. Of course, it's entirely in the NPF Moderators' prerogative to decide if that stance leads to Liz being moderated. But, generally speaking, if the idea of engaging with someone like Liz who values your individual arguments positions more than your overall integrity or character upsets you, that's probably a good sign that *serious Discussion conversations about topics like racism and misogyny and homophobia are ones you should avoid,* and in an effort to avoid conjuring said topics, you should probably also avoid posting content that may, however inadvertently, offend said oppressed minority groups and crap, I'm losing my train of thought.) Nothing posted should be interpreted as an argument against *civility,* insofar as I think every and any online community should strive for that, and Moderators are 100% in the right to attempt to rigidly enforce that, but this is an argument against the tried and true practice of deflecting valid intellectual criticism under the pretense that some tiny portion of it is personally 'offensive' insofar as it does not presume you have the pure heart and pristine motives of an angel. We should not have to preface arguments made in this thread with, "X, you're a great person and I really like you and you shouldn't interpret any of this commentary in response to your brazenly racist / misogynistic / homophobic / transphobic post as a direct insult on your character, your contributions to society or your value as a human being, because I know that by mere virtue of your existence as a human being and your presence on NPF and past association with politically liberal beliefs and concepts that you are likely not actively or overtly intending to behave as a racist / misogynist / homophobic / transphobic individual, *but..."* That would be stupid. Holy shit I hate this post already so I'm going to end it. I think the thing that pisses me most off about tipsy-Snake is that the inclination to write Walls is just as prevalent as with Sober-Snake, only the filter's gone, meaning that if you hated Snake's Walls before, handing Snake a bit of alcohol will not fix your problems. *THE END!!!!* __________________ *WARNING:* Snek's all up in this thread. Be prepared to read massive walls of text.

07-30-2012, 01:11 AM	#87
*Fenris* Administrator Join Date: May 2005 Location: East Coast Posts: 6,806	Snake Snake Snake I read all of your post do you understand this is a personal best for me also it was a very good post, I liked it. would read it again. not right now though __________________ "FENRIS IS AN ASSHOLE" - shiney

07-30-2012, 01:18 AM	#90
Thadius BEARD IMPACT Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: MANLY ANGER Posts: 1,977	Actually Snake, and this may come as a surprise to you... I enjoyed that wall of text. It explained quite a bit, really, about this online community we have here. It also explained why I hate Liz focusing on those issues so much. Ever since I was old enough to grasp the concept, I was raised better than to differentiate between people based on physical differences. I was taught that someone with a difference in their skin tone does not mean that I cannot be friends with them. Odd, really, considering I can count on one hand the amount of people that are physically different from me in that department that I count as friends. Gender was no barrier, race was no barrier, age was no barrier. I was a happy, healthy child, who wanted to be friends with everyone, regardless of any differences. I've matured a bit, but I've not lost the teachings of my parents. Liz focusing on the fact that people discriminate based on those things angers me, and I finally pinned down why. It's not that Liz is posting those things. It's that those things still exist for Liz to post about. I know that not everyone is like me. Not everyone is capable of seeing past physical differences, looking at what a person is before judging them. One day, it may come to pass, that racism and bigotry and sexism die out in the world. They certainly have in my heart. __________________ ANGER HAS NEVER BEEN MORE MANLY THAN THIS.

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07-30-2012, 01:06 AM	#86
Aldurin Lakitu Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 4,648	I want to start a support group for your keyboard, Snake. It's gotta be rough being banged on relentlessly for results that are already prefaced with "Hey this is more likely than not a waste of your time to read".

07-30-2012, 01:15 AM	#89
Aldurin Lakitu Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 4,648	You know, you could just rep me instead of using so many words to say "THUMBS UP, BRO!" Like, this is why your keyboard needs to file for abuse.