The Warring States of NPF  

Go Back   The Warring States of NPF > Dead threads
User Name
Password
Mark Forums Read
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Join Chat

 
View First Unread View First Unread   Click to unhide all tags.Click to hide all tags.  
Thread Tools Display Modes
Unread 01-04-2007, 11:45 AM   #1
Fifthfiend
for all seasons
 
Fifthfiend's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,409
Fifthfiend has indicated, by your reading this, that they are now President and you have to fart gourmet mustard arugula into your Obamacare. Fifthfiend has indicated, by your reading this, that they are now President and you have to fart gourmet mustard arugula into your Obamacare. Fifthfiend has indicated, by your reading this, that they are now President and you have to fart gourmet mustard arugula into your Obamacare. Fifthfiend has indicated, by your reading this, that they are now President and you have to fart gourmet mustard arugula into your Obamacare. Fifthfiend has indicated, by your reading this, that they are now President and you have to fart gourmet mustard arugula into your Obamacare. Fifthfiend has indicated, by your reading this, that they are now President and you have to fart gourmet mustard arugula into your Obamacare. Fifthfiend has indicated, by your reading this, that they are now President and you have to fart gourmet mustard arugula into your Obamacare. Fifthfiend has indicated, by your reading this, that they are now President and you have to fart gourmet mustard arugula into your Obamacare. Fifthfiend has indicated, by your reading this, that they are now President and you have to fart gourmet mustard arugula into your Obamacare. Fifthfiend has indicated, by your reading this, that they are now President and you have to fart gourmet mustard arugula into your Obamacare. Fifthfiend has indicated, by your reading this, that they are now President and you have to fart gourmet mustard arugula into your Obamacare.
Send a message via AIM to Fifthfiend
Default Health Care

It's just a thread-happy day for me, innit?

Anyway:

Health Care Problem? Check the American Psyche
By ANNA BERNASEK


Quote:
WHAT is the most pressing problem facing the economy? A good case can be made for the developing health care crisis. Soaring costs, growing ranks of uninsured and a steady erosion of corporate health benefits add up to a giant drag on the nation’s future prosperity.

While the outlook seems scary, it doesn’t have to be. There is a solution, proven effective for hundreds of millions of people: single-payer health insurance.

Yes, single-payer — that much-maligned idea that calls for everyone to pay into one insurer, typically the government or a public agency. The insurer then pays doctors, pharmacists and hospitals at preset rates. Patients who want unapproved procedures and doctors not willing to accept the standard payment remain free to deal with one another directly, outside the system.

Such a system makes it much easier to deal with the growing costs of medical care, like administrative expenses and prescription drugs. It could also reduce the mountains of paperwork plaguing the current system and provide insurance coverage for the 46 million Americans now doing without it.

What’s more, as demonstrated in France, Britain, Canada, Australia and other countries with functioning single-payer systems, significant savings can come without hurting the overall health of the population.

There’s only one catch. Most Americans just don’t believe it can be done. The health care crisis may turn out to be more of a problem of ideology than economics.

The economic case for a single-payer system is surprisingly strong. Start with what we already know. Countries with single-payer systems have long records of spending less on health care than the United States does. The United States spent an average of $6,102 a person on it in 2004, according to the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development, while Canada spent $3,165 a person, France $3,159, Australia $3,120 and Britain just $2,508.

At the same time, life expectancy in the United States, a broad measure of health, was slightly lower than it was in those other countries in 2004, the latest year for which complete figures are available. And the United States had a higher rate of infant mortality.

To be sure, a single-payer system has plenty of critics. Unattractive features of some such systems, including waiting lists for particular types of care, are often highlighted by skeptics. But supporters note that the overall health of people fares well in those countries.

“The story never changes,” said Gerard F. Anderson, a professor at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health. “The United States is twice as expensive with about the same outcome.

“As a consumer, I don’t mind paying more if I’m getting more, but that’s just not the case in the U.S.,” said Professor Anderson, who publishes an annual review comparing the American health care system with those of its peers.

What may be less well known is the level of administrative waste in the United States health care system, versus that of well-designed systems elsewhere. Although Americans tend to equate efficiency with private enterprise, that’s not the case with the current system.

The American system, based on multiple insurers, builds in more unnecessary costs. Duplicate processing of claims, large numbers of insurance products, complicated bill-paying systems and high marketing costs add up to huge administrative expenses.

Then there’s an enormous amount of paperwork required of American doctors and hospitals that simply doesn’t exist in countries like Canada or Britain.

“There’s little disagreement among economists today that a single-payer system would lead to lower administrative costs,” said Len Nichols, a health economist with the New America Foundation, a policy research organization in Washington. But he said that estimates varied widely over how big the savings could be.

One of the first major studies to quantify administrative costs in the United States was published in August 2003 in The New England Journal of Medicine by three Harvard researchers, Steffie Woolhandler, Terry Campbell and David U. Himmelstein. It concluded that such costs accounted for 31 percent of all health care expenditures in the United States.

More recently, in 2005, a study by the Lewin Group, a health care consulting firm commissioned to examine a proposal to provide universal health coverage in California, estimated that administrative costs consumed 20 percent of total health care expenditures nationwide.

Then there’s the test of time. Health care costs tend to rise over time as new technology and procedures are introduced. Yet here, too, government-funded systems appear to help contain long-term costs.

Consider Canada’s system. Professor Anderson points out that in the 1960s, Canada and the United States spent roughly the same per person on health care. Some three decades later, though, Canada spent half as much as America. How did Canada manage this? By controlling the use of medical equipment and hospital resources, which statistics show has helped Canadians keep a lid on costs without measurably compromising the overall health of the population.

Economic studies also show that a government-funded system could reduce costs while providing coverage for everyone. The Lewin report on the proposal to provide universal health coverage in California calculated that if such a system had been operating in 2006, it would have saved $8 billion, or around 4.3 percent of total health spending in the state. From 2006 to 2015, it estimated, savings would total $343 billion. Currently, California spends about $180 billion a year on health care.

Despite everything that is known about the economic benefits of a single-payer system, there’s one big stumbling block: many Americans don’t believe in it. They have heard horror stories from abroad, often spread by partisan advocates, focusing on worst-case examples. Such tales play upon the aversion of many Americans to government involvement in the economy.

Victor R. Fuchs, an economics professor at Stanford and a specialist in health care economics, explained it this way: “The Canadian system is a nonstarter for the U.S. even though it’s a good system for Canadians. You’re dealing with two very different countries. We were founded on life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. They were founded on peace, order and good government. It’s a difference of values.”

Others in the field echo his skepticism. But that raises questions about how well Americans understand the system they have, and what the alternatives are.

JUDGING from other countries, many features that Americans really like — being able to choose their own doctor, for example — would remain available in a well-designed single-payer system. And a single-payer system need not mean government-provided care: it often means government-provided insurance that encourages competition among providers.

Much of the resistance to a single-payer system appears to stem from a lack of confidence in the nation’s ability to make positive change. With all of its prowess in research and technology, can’t the United States match the efficiency of other developed nations, or do even better?

Changing the minds of so many millions of people isn’t done overnight. But sooner or later, persuading people to do something that’s in their own economic interest ought to succeed.
I found the article to be problematic in a couple of dimensions, namely it has the New York Times' rather obnoxious institutional tic of blithely attributing the perniciousness of social problems to The Mood Of The American People, as opposed to the powerful political factions which have an overwhelming pecuniary interest in maintaining the status quo. The difficulty of instituting health care reform has vanishingly little to do with ideology, unless you're talking about the ideological belief of insurance company executives that they should continue to make tens of millions of dollars a year. I mean I'm even pretty sure that actual polling indicates that most americans do support some form of universal health care, so the NYT's 'most Americans don't believe in it' assertions are pretty much utter bunk.

But aside from that the article is rather spot on with the numbers, and what I find particularly salient is that if you extrapolate from the data provided, not only does the US as a whole expend more on health care per capita, the US Government spends more on health care than do governments with state-operated systems.
__________________
check out my buttspresso
Fifthfiend is offline Add to Fifthfiend's Reputation  
Unread 01-05-2007, 05:31 PM   #2
Darth SS
I do the numbers.
 
Darth SS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Saskatoon
Posts: 5,260
Darth SS is a ray of sunshine lighting up your life. Darth SS is a ray of sunshine lighting up your life. Darth SS is a ray of sunshine lighting up your life. Darth SS is a ray of sunshine lighting up your life.
Default

I think the writer of the article is perhaps a bit optimistic about the state of Canadian health care.

I mean, you do still need to get health insurance. There's also quite long waits in hospitals for any kind of treatment, and in Calgary especially there's a horrible shortage of doctors and hospital rooms.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by DFM
I would kill all the puppies.
Darth SS is offline Add to Darth SS's Reputation  
Unread 01-05-2007, 06:07 PM   #3
Azisien
wat
 
Azisien's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 7,177
Azisien can secretly fly, but doesn't, because it would make everyone else feel bad that they can't. Azisien can secretly fly, but doesn't, because it would make everyone else feel bad that they can't. Azisien can secretly fly, but doesn't, because it would make everyone else feel bad that they can't. Azisien can secretly fly, but doesn't, because it would make everyone else feel bad that they can't. Azisien can secretly fly, but doesn't, because it would make everyone else feel bad that they can't. Azisien can secretly fly, but doesn't, because it would make everyone else feel bad that they can't. Azisien can secretly fly, but doesn't, because it would make everyone else feel bad that they can't. Azisien can secretly fly, but doesn't, because it would make everyone else feel bad that they can't. Azisien can secretly fly, but doesn't, because it would make everyone else feel bad that they can't. Azisien can secretly fly, but doesn't, because it would make everyone else feel bad that they can't.
Default

It's important not to overestimate AND underestimate the Canadian health care system. It's not universal or perfect, no, but it's certainly excellent. I do hear about overwork in the medical profession in general, lack of hospital beds (not so much lately?) and lack of doctors/nurses in Ontario and the Maritimes too, but is it exclusively a Canadian problem? Well, someone non-Canadian give me an answer!

I mean, I'm Canadian and I don't have health care insurance. It's good to have if you plan on (cough cough) contracting some of the major things that aren't covered by our health care (about half of the medication my grandparents require isn't covered).

And to get it out of the way in case someone makes the mistake later on in the thread, it's not "free" in Canada either. We pay for it like everything else. Money doesn't come from nowhere (though the article does point out that due to our organization, we at least appear to be paying less on the bottom line for roughly the same treatment).
Azisien is offline Add to Azisien's Reputation  
Unread 01-06-2007, 12:02 AM   #4
Demetrius
In need of a vacation
 
Demetrius's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Peoples Republic of Vermont
Posts: 3,236
Demetrius is like one of those neat quartz stones you find at the beach.
Send a message via AIM to Demetrius Send a message via Yahoo to Demetrius
Default

I think that with waiting lines the numbers you churn out aren't quite on the up and up, sure you may spend less but how many people are on waits and not recieving benefits where in the US you pay out the ass but can get the service when you need it. Demand influences supply in the free market (privatized health care) where as a shortage occurs when governments insert a price ceiling. Either way the government would screw you just as much if not more than private providers (see: corrupt gov't). The main thing that I can see as a big advantage would be none of the out of network crap (yeah I have a 17k bill for a totally approved proceedure that I payed my deductable on). More government influence and control strikes me as really scary in light of how things are going lately.
__________________
DFM, Demon seed of Hell who fuels its incredible power by butchering little girls and feeding on their innocence.
Demetrius, Dark clown of the netherworld, a being of incalculable debauchery and a soulless, faceless evil as old as time itself.
Zilla, The chick.
~DFM

Wii bishie bishie kawaii baka! ~ Fifthfiend
Demetrius is offline Add to Demetrius's Reputation  
Unread 01-06-2007, 01:21 AM   #5
42PETUNIAS
helloooo!
 
42PETUNIAS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: The Court
Posts: 2,816
42PETUNIAS is a glorious beacon of painfully blinding light. 42PETUNIAS is a glorious beacon of painfully blinding light.
Send a message via AIM to 42PETUNIAS Send a message via MSN to 42PETUNIAS Send a message via Skype™ to 42PETUNIAS
Default

Quote:
Much of the resistance to a single-payer system appears to stem from a lack of confidence in the nation’s ability to make positive change. With all of its prowess in research and technology, can’t the United States match the efficiency of other developed nations, or do even better?
This struck me as pretty true. I mean, with all the people calling out what your american government is doing wrong, no ones saying trusting in itto do good things.
__________________
noooo! why are you doing that?!
42PETUNIAS is offline Add to 42PETUNIAS's Reputation  
Unread 01-06-2007, 06:47 AM   #6
Mirai Gen
We are Geth.
 
Mirai Gen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Posts: 14,032
Mirai Gen can see why kids love Cinnamon Toast Crunch. Mirai Gen can see why kids love Cinnamon Toast Crunch. Mirai Gen can see why kids love Cinnamon Toast Crunch. Mirai Gen can see why kids love Cinnamon Toast Crunch. Mirai Gen can see why kids love Cinnamon Toast Crunch. Mirai Gen can see why kids love Cinnamon Toast Crunch. Mirai Gen can see why kids love Cinnamon Toast Crunch. Mirai Gen can see why kids love Cinnamon Toast Crunch.
Default

Isn't it hilariously ironic how we have the funds and capabilities and will to go to another country and fix what they have that's broken, but we're not willing to glean a few ideas from a country that we're physically connected to?

I'd be laughing if I wasn't so frustrated. But I frequently get that way about politics.
__________________
Mirai Gen is offline Add to Mirai Gen's Reputation  
 

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:34 AM.
The server time is now 10:34:55 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.