The Onion of History...or "Guns, Germs, and Steel"

[RobinStarwing]

I remembered watching the documentary on PBS and now reading the book.

This is so far a rather interesting treatise on why our world might be like it is at the root causes of it. It goes way back to practically the dawn of farming and even before that and poses a good series of questions. Most notable of which is Yali's question on "Why do whites have so much cargo?"

Just curious if anyone else has read this book or seen the Documentary?

[MSperoni]

I have seen the documentary and read about half of it. Well, not so much "read" as "listened to the audio book". The narrator of the audio book is super dry and I can never finish the thing. It's also abridged so that kinda puts a damper on it.

Still, I think it's pretty interesting.

[CABAL49]

That line about cargo sounds familiar so I want to say yes. Was it about how large animals gave Europe an advantage when it came to farming, spurring other technological advancements?

[tacticslion]

Originally Posted by CABAL49

That line about cargo sounds familiar so I want to say yes. Was it about how large animals gave Europe an advantage when it came to farming, spurring other technological advancements?

Among many other things, yes.

It's a really interesting read. I've spoken to some who've panned it, but I've never gotten a decent explanation as to why.

The closest is that a few have told me Diamond is "glib with the facts", although from what I recall that wasn't really true.

Still, I can't say for sure, as it's been quite a while since I've read it.

[MSperoni]

Certain large domestic animals (cows, horses, etc) also were the originators of the various diseases that would later wreck North American people. Europeans developed immunities due to being in contact with their livestock, but the only semi-domesticated farm animal that was available in North America were llamas and alpacas, and I think all farming was done by hand.

I think a lot of critics feel Diamond's explanation is too "clean". I gotta admit, it does seem that way... But sometimes the simplest explanation is the right one, and I'm not a pro in the field so I dunno. If anything, Diamond's theories get ya thinking.

[RobinStarwing]

The documentary might be worth a NPF Movie night...

But yeah, it was about that and I like clean and simple reasons. They are easy to understand AND are rather elegant.

[tacticslion]

Originally Posted by MSperoni

I think a lot of critics feel Diamond's explanation is too "clean". I gotta admit, it does seem that way... But sometimes the simplest explanation is the right one, and I'm not a pro in the field so I dunno. If anything, Diamond's theories get ya thinking.

I can see that, in retrospect. But I totally agree: Diamond really gets you to think about, look at, and reexamine a lot of things you took for granted.

Heck, if I recall, reading this book is one of the things that helped ameliorate some of the "White Guilt" type thing I'd been feeling at the time due to a lot of conversations with a coworker.

(NOTE: the amelioration was not because "white's are awesome", or whatever, but because, "Dudes, humans are awesome: all of 'em!" Besides. I'm actually considered a Native American who just looks like a bleached cracker.)

[MSperoni]

History has taught me that being an asshole to other people isn't something exclusive to whites, so I've never had any guilty feelings that needed amelioration. Still, I always figured the global dominance of European civs in the past 500 years had more to do with them being in the right place at the right time than anything else. So it was neat reading Diamond's attempt to explain the cause of it.

Or well...half of it. I still haven't finished it :P (the narrator of the audio book is so dry it makes me thirsty just listening to him).

I'm sure White Supremacists and Euro-centric types hate it

Though I think some critics feel Diamond is being too Eurocentric, but if you're going to explain why the conquest of people by Europeans in the last 500 years has nothing to do with "racial superiority" then you have to focus on them.

Also China's success can basically be attributed to the same reasons, so he probably felt he didn't need to focus as much on them.

[tacticslion]

Originally Posted by MSperoni

History has taught me that being an asshole to other people isn't something exclusive to whites, so I've never had any guilty feelings that needed amelioration. Still, I always figured the global dominance of European civs in the past 500 years had more to do with them being in the right place at the right time than anything else. So it was neat reading Diamond's attempt to explain the cause of it.

This is more or less exactly it. It was a liberating feeling, honestly.

Originally Posted by MSperoni

Or well...half of it. I still haven't finished it :P (the narrator of the audio book is so dry it makes me thirsty just listening to him).

That's a shame. The actual book itself was quite engaging.

Originally Posted by MSperoni

I'm sure White Supremacists and Euro-centric types hate it

Oh, man, ugh, do they ever. That's the only discussion point of his critics that I've spoken with that I actually understood (and subsequently dismissed) (at least that I remember). It was kind of hilarious, really. Those guys were so... sad, really.

Originally Posted by MSperoni

Though I think some critics feel Diamond is being too Eurocentric, but if you're going to explain why the conquest of people by Europeans in the last 500 years has nothing to do with "racial superiority" then you have to focus on them.

I can see their point here. There were a few instances where he was kind of "meh" about the impact of the locals before the Europeans arrived, but at the same time, I found his reasoning sensible and more importantly, directly related to our modern culture and lifestyle and issues.

Originally Posted by MSperoni

Also China's success can basically be attributed to the same reasons, so he probably felt he didn't need to focus as much on them.

Also they were less active in Yali's "home" area, which was the basis of this book's exploration. The entire thing was ultimately to answer Yali's question and... it pretty much does that. That's what it's built around. I can understand that.