Comic Book Villains

Seil · 06-07-2010, 04:00 PM

Hey Two-Face! Show me how to punch a guy!

This will eventually devolve into a "Who will the villain in the next Batman flick be," but before we get to that, why not look at:

Darkseid, who's... well, kinda gloomy. He doesn't have nearly as much fun with his work as, say, Lex Luthor. Magneto's pretty rad, too.

A lot of comic book villains, or movie villains - how the non-comic book readers know them - aren't really villains anymore. Sure, a lot of them do evil or bad stuff, but at the same time they're doing it fora greater good - Magneto is trying to save mutants! Mr. Freeze is trying to save his wife! Luthor is... well, Luthor.

Villains - are they really villains? Who is the best villain? What was their best era, costume or appearance? And will they be in the next Batman movie?

Magus · 06-07-2010, 04:13 PM

Luthor in Lex Luthor: Man of Steel tried to justify his criminal activities with opposing the alien menace of Superman who he considers hypocritical and unearthly, though it was pretty good at pointing out that Lex Luthor is...well, just trying to justify his criminal activities. He's sort of rendered as being a tragic figure via the comic even if there's no real way you can say he isn't almost entirely evil. Joker sort of tried to do that, but I think they were aware it was impossible to make the The Dark Knight-style Joker seem even mildly sympathetic so they stuck in Johnny Frost as the narrator, who is an interesting antihero..

They have attempted to make the Joker sympathetic a few times, mostly in The Killing Joke. Most of the best Batman villains are mildly sympathetic, it makes them more interesting. You already mentioned Two-Face and Mr. Freeze, there was also one of the Clayfaces, I mentioned the Joker as well. They tried to make Scarecrow sympathetic recently as well by showing his abused childhood. All the villains that are just totally evil (Black Mask, The Penguin [in the comics, I mean, not Batman Returns], etc.) aren't really as interesting.

My favorite villain would be hard to identify, I enjoy most of the Batman villains, even the ones that aren't as interesting because they are totally evil (Black Mask isn't as interesting but holy shit is he evil).

Aerozord · 06-07-2010, 05:13 PM

because thats human nature. Not even Hitler thought of himself as evil. Its what gives characters depth is how they got there. Even complete sociopaths can be justified by mental illness or belief in amorality. The only thing that makes them evil is that average person in our modern society finds what they do morally questionable.

tacticslion · 06-07-2010, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aerozord

because thats human nature. Not even Hitler thought of himself as evil. Its what gives characters depth is how they got there. Even complete sociopaths can be justified by mental illness or belief in amorality. The only thing that makes them evil is that average person in our modern society finds what they do morally questionable.

I was with you until you mentioned what makes a person evil. It's not societal, and it's not relative. There is an absolute standard of good and evil. The problem is that all people are (to some extent) evil, just as we all (to some extent) have the propensity and desire to be good. Further complicating things is that we can get confused over what is right and wrong by constant exposure or mental illnesses. Even the most twisted, corrupt, and maddened entity, who worships "evil" as a concept, and seeks to promote it, does so out of some sense of "this is what is right" - no one believes that they are completely wrong, or if they do, they justify it somehow, even if it's as shallow as "someone will stop me" or "I've got to prove this point". When we do good, we justify it. When we do evil, we justify it. Only one of those things are good. You were right that it's human nature to do so.

Really, it comes down to how closely we can identify with the villains motiviations. The closer a villain comes to being comprehensible, the more tragic they become. Mr. Freeze doesn't really want anything wrong. He doesn't want to commit crime, and he doesn't want to harm people, per se. What he wants is for his wife to live, or, barring that, for those who killed her to have justice brought upon them. The methods he uses - because he feels he must - are reprehensible, but to him, regardless of what he sets out to do, he does all in the name of "justice". No act becomes unthinkable, nothing too heinous, for his justice shan't be denied.

Many books, movies, and comics (especially the silver age) have shallow villains. They're evil just because*, and they don't really care otherwise. Usually this is the "insane" villain. Similarly, however, some have written exceedingly well-crafted "human" villians we can relate to. Most villains have a "noble" goal in mind, and to them, the end justifies the means. Often, however, from such earnest origins, villains "grow" into villiany, simply because, like MacBeth, they figure "I've waded half way through this river of blood", so they might as well finish. Others simply can't see that their means aren't noble - they're too steeped in their way of thinking to be able to think beyond it, one of the historic causes of war and strife in humanity. Either way, human.

DarkDrgon · 06-07-2010, 10:25 PM

my favorite villain is completely unsympathetic, and is pretty much a complete dick. Bullseye has never had a reason for his actions (at least, in none of the DD I've ever read)

Magus · 06-07-2010, 10:46 PM

He's a mercenary, he gets paid for assassinating people. He's therefore greedy for money and amoral. Very human! Not really sympathetic, but pretty human...

walkertexasdruid · 07-05-2010, 09:23 PM

Maybe they should bring Harley Quinn into the next Batman Movie. Arkam Assylum figures prominently in this series of movies, she was the Joker's psychiatrist.

Best villain, hmm... Well Apocolypse is a pretty significant villain that has been left out of the X-Men movies so far. He is only their most formidible opponent.

CABAL49 · 07-05-2010, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by walkertexasdruid

Best villain, hmm... Well Apocolypse is a pretty significant villain that has been left out of the X-Men movies so far. He is only their most formidible opponent.

Wouldn't the movies need to bring Jean and Scott back then? Or we could just pretend the third movie never happened.

bluestarultor · 07-05-2010, 11:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CABAL49

Wouldn't the movies need to bring Jean and Scott back then? Or we could just pretend the third movie never happened.

I think the third movie pretty much killed the possibility of a fourth. Not in that it didn't leave things wide open for one, but in that people will probably flood the theaters with torches if they make one.

Token · 07-05-2010, 11:05 PM

I thought we were doing that already.

06-07-2010, 04:00 PM	#1
Seil Super stressed! Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: British Columbia Posts: 8,081	Comic Book Villains Hey Two-Face! Show me how to punch a guy! This will eventually devolve into a "Who will the villain in the next Batman flick be," but before we get to that, why not look at: Darkseid, who's... well, kinda gloomy. He doesn't have nearly as much fun with his work as, say, Lex Luthor. Magneto's pretty rad, too. A lot of comic book villains, or movie villains - how the non-comic book readers know them - aren't really villains anymore. Sure, a lot of them do evil or bad stuff, but at the same time they're doing it fora greater good - Magneto is trying to save mutants! Mr. Freeze is trying to save his wife! Luthor is... well, Luthor. Villains - are they really villains? Who is the best villain? What was their best era, costume or appearance? And will they be in the next Batman movie?

06-07-2010, 04:13 PM	#2
Magus Archer and Armstrong vs. the World Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 7,164	Luthor in Lex Luthor: Man of Steel tried to justify his criminal activities with opposing the alien menace of Superman who he considers hypocritical and unearthly, though it was pretty good at pointing out that Lex Luthor is...well, just trying to justify his criminal activities. He's sort of rendered as being a tragic figure via the comic even if there's no real way you can say he isn't almost entirely evil. Joker sort of tried to do that, but I think they were aware it was impossible to make the The Dark Knight-style Joker seem even mildly sympathetic so they stuck in Johnny Frost as the narrator, who is an interesting antihero.. They have attempted to make the Joker sympathetic a few times, mostly in The Killing Joke. Most of the best Batman villains are mildly sympathetic, it makes them more interesting. You already mentioned Two-Face and Mr. Freeze, there was also one of the Clayfaces, I mentioned the Joker as well. They tried to make Scarecrow sympathetic recently as well by showing his abused childhood. All the villains that are just totally evil (Black Mask, The Penguin [in the comics, I mean, not Batman Returns], etc.) aren't really as interesting. My favorite villain would be hard to identify, I enjoy most of the Batman villains, even the ones that aren't as interesting because they are totally evil (Black Mask isn't as interesting but holy shit is he evil). Last edited by Magus; 06-07-2010 at 04:35 PM.

06-07-2010, 05:13 PM	#3
Aerozord So we are clear Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Former murder capital of the world Posts: 13,824	because thats human nature. Not even Hitler thought of himself as evil. Its what gives characters depth is how they got there. Even complete sociopaths can be justified by mental illness or belief in amorality. The only thing that makes them evil is that average person in our modern society finds what they do morally questionable. __________________ "don't hate me for being a heterosexual white guy disparaging slacktivism, hate me for all those murders I've done."

06-07-2010, 10:25 PM	#5
DarkDrgon Always Trick Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 978	my favorite villain is completely unsympathetic, and is pretty much a complete dick. Bullseye has never had a reason for his actions (at least, in none of the DD I've ever read) __________________ [color=red] Kneel before the Lord Drgon, or you will be knelt.

07-05-2010, 09:23 PM	#7
walkertexasdruid I am the One Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Infinate Layers of the Abyss Posts: 533	Maybe they should bring Harley Quinn into the next Batman Movie. Arkam Assylum figures prominently in this series of movies, she was the Joker's psychiatrist. Best villain, hmm... Well Apocolypse is a pretty significant villain that has been left out of the X-Men movies so far. He is only their most formidible opponent. __________________ Naive Optimist

06-07-2010, 10:46 PM	#6
Magus Archer and Armstrong vs. the World Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 7,164	He's a mercenary, he gets paid for assassinating people. He's therefore greedy for money and amoral. Very human! Not really sympathetic, but pretty human...

07-05-2010, 11:05 PM	#10
Token Magikoopa Join Date: Dec 2008 Posts: 1,789	I thought we were doing that already.