Pokemon Umbral Discussion 32: Ultimate Showdown of Ascended Classes

Astral Harmony · 06-29-2010, 01:54 AM

First, before we start this back and forth about balance and whatnot, let's begin with a visually pleasing picture...

Now that our minds are calm and our noses are bled dry, here comes the avalanche...

...

Wow, that's actually not a ridiculous number of questions in all the time I was away. Oh, well. When I present the documents at the end of this post, I'll probably kick off a storm of questions from that alone.

Giving a Pokemon the Almighty type is something quite strange. I really want to say no outright because Almighty is the rightful owner of demonic and angelic beings and Boss Monsters, not humans and Pokemon. On the other hand, if you can provide a good enough theory on how a Pokemon can be the Almighty type, I'm willing to accept it when you complete it.

When you get a Pokemon of your own, including Legendaries, you can do whatever the fuck you want with it. Even put a laser beam on its head. 'Cause, y'know, nobody's ever thought of that before.

Matthias's Paradigm Shift not wanting to be renewed is taken into account. Thank you.

I think that's all that was asked. Okay, here're the droids you've been looking for.

Battle System Tutorial 1 hasn't been updated any since the last time it was posted. Most likely updates to occur should be about the new status effects and about fighting in different types of hazardous environments.

Battle System Tutorial 2 is updated with Muon Harper and Lexhur's information. That's it. It'll be updated by quite a large amount after Mission 3.

Powers lists all upgrades of all classes...almost. Here's what you need to help me with. There're many different types of Magatamas out there, and the results of ingesting one or the other should result in different and unique upgrades, shouldn't you say? So, instead of creating a large series of different upgrades depending on a variety of Magatamas I could think up, I've decided to let you use your creativity to think of the kind of Magatama you would ingest should you go for the Demon Half and Demon upgrades. Do you want ice powers? More Almighty powers? Maybe some psionics? Throw me a suggestion of what you want and I'll cook up your very own demon upgrades. Demon Half level 1 is already decided, but the other nine levels are left to your imagination.

You'll find levels for accessing new Signature Techniques and Love Techniques at the very bottom after the empty Demon upgrades.

If you look closely, you'll also notice a handful of new status effects, like Exhaustion, Apathy, and Berserk. Don't worry about what those do now. Pretty soon I'll have those added to both the Battle System Tutorial 1 and the Characters and Terminology document which still needs some work done on it.

When the Characters and Terminology is done, which should be sometime this week I'm hoping, it'll be posted here. You can find paragraphs of information on the characters (alphabetized by their first name) and on various terms used in this RP. Like all other documents, I think it's good as reading material, but you should mostly use it as a reference if there's something you just don't understand.

Right, now onto the real discussion. Obviously, looking at all the upgrades and comparing, I tried to do my best to keep balance in mind while also trying to establish a clear difference between each and every level. Well, I tried my best despite the distraction of finally seeing Lucky Star for the first time. It's a strangely appealing anime and I'm very glad I picked it up.

Hammering out the clusterfuck of upgrades into something balanced will be all of our jobs. After all, they're all our upgrades, right?

Menarker · 06-29-2010, 02:17 AM

Interesting stuff. Although I admit the set of extra abilities for Pokemon Breeder "Cure, Preserverance and Motivate" do not seem appealing in the slightest, especially since that's what we use Medics for already. Personally would opt for switching abilities or something like that, to boost the effectiveness of individual pokemons in slightly different ways, but that's just me

Also, Pokemon Co-op techniques seem oddly missing? Or is that included as "Signature Techniques" below?

Also, a question regarding the "Love Techniques"...

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- 2nd Signature Technique (Level 8) ~ You're as strong as most mid-ranking officers.
- 2nd Love Technique (Level 9) ~ Things are getting hot and heavy.
- 3rd Signature Technique (Level 12) ~ Not feeling unstoppable enough yet?
- 3rd Love Technique (Level 13) ~ Forever in love...unless you do something stupid.

That makes it sound like the later ones is the strongest one... despite the fact that I already chosen Lola (the hopeful love interest) for my first one. Do earlier ranks of Love Techniques improve as the characters level up as well?

Astral Harmony · 06-29-2010, 02:32 AM

True. I must've forgotten about Ability switching. I'll be sure to correct that probably tomorrow night, or maybe even after I'm done with the RP post.

Signature Techniques is pretty much the catch-all term which includes Pokemon Co-Ops.

The Signature Techniques and Love Techniques won't be any stronger or weaker regardless of how powerful you've grown or how much in love you and your love interest are. Those are just dumbass little descriptions I made at the last minute because I'm retarded.

Menarker · 06-29-2010, 02:41 AM

I was just reading up more and comparing... and sorry to say... but...

It seems unfair that the Tuners are practically equal superior to Breeders in every way! (Although this is likely to change since you said you still might add some more things and there might have been some things you missed in your proofreading such as custom move at level 3 or 5 or so...)

Both have:
- 3rd Xth Stage/Veteran upgrade is now available.
-"Cure, Preserverance and Motivate"
- Rage Boost. Same amount for both.
- 2 custom items
- 1 custom move (at Snagger/Trainer 5)

Tuners get:
-Instant Death Ball
- 8 pokemons total!

Breeders get:
- Use item as free action instead of forfeiting a pokemon's action.
- Another rage ability (Partial resist to a type of attack which requires guessing which ally will be attacked and with which type.)

Now, I'm quite... unimpressed. Totally. I was believing or lead to understood that several of the things like Veterans and maybe the custom moves was supposed to belong to Breeder alone since they are supposed to be the ones improving their pokemons to new heights. Snaggers getting more pokemons sounds great and is in character, but they also get every good advantage of the breeder while the current Breeders get 1 thing that is decent (but not great) and another thing that don't really improve them? I don't like that. Not one bit.

Tuners at the moment get more pokemons and equal number of pokemons as strong as the breeder class who has less actual pokemons to begin with.

But, like I said, there were probably details you missed and things are still in the proofreading stage.

Overblades look like they got a great deal though. ^^

Also...

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Pokebrid (Level 5)

- Pokeform types have status and statistic defenses depending on the type they are. A Poison type Pokemon is immune to Poison and Bad Poison status effects, for example. The best way to know what does what is to look at the special defenses of Slayer armor.

Some of the other elements like grass for drain immunity or dark for flinch immunity would make sense. But Poison is already immune to Poison and I think some other elements like fire to burn or ice to frozen applies too.

Also!

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- All Pokebrids can now use moves beyond their third turn in a row, but at the penalty of a Rage Point cost that grows with subsequent turns. I'll explain about the Rage Point System below.

Didn't you earlier offered (and we accepted) that Pokebrids no longer suffer the 3 turn attack limit, at the cost of them having cool-down and charge-ups on moves not used during their Poke-Sync period?

Astral Harmony · 06-29-2010, 03:06 AM

This is true. I think I'll lower Tuners to one Xth Stage/Veteran Pokemon at Tuner level 3. That should make up for the fact that they'll end up with more Pokemon than Breeders have.

As for Devas, all that stuff is already implied by what I put there. At least, I think it is.

That last part was just overlooked. Ignore it until I find it and remove it.

Menarker · 06-29-2010, 03:11 AM

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Originally Posted by Armored Bishoujo

As for Devas, all that stuff is already implied by what I put there. At least, I think it is.

What I meant is that the Devas ability to gain status immunity related to your type may be redundant sometimes to someone who is already of that specific type. (Mind you, it's a great idea otherwise.)

For example: Dante > Matthias's most common form is Venomoth, a poison/bug type. Poison armor normally grants immunity to poison. However, Poison pokemons are already naturally immune to poison. So Dante doesn't get a bonus for his poison type because the Devas ability is trying to give him something (Poison immunity) he already has (Poison Pokemon already immune to poison). He'd only get a bonus for his bug typing.

Anyhow, I gotta head for bed. See you later. ^^

Astral Harmony · 06-29-2010, 03:37 AM

So, then he gains the advantage to his Bug type. Is this really a problem?

Powers has been streamlined and updated. The Xth Stage/Veteran upgrades for Tuners are all removed and new tactics and status effects caused by Snagballs are available in their stead.

EDIT: Post is more than halfway done. Should have the rest done and posted tomorrow night. Get ready. I'm going to bring it all crashing down on you.

EDIT 2: More fixes made to Battle Tutorial 1 and Powers. Deleted some information that both documents shared and simplied Slayer Level 1.

Dracorion · 06-29-2010, 07:42 AM

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Originally Posted by Menarker

Prime? Transcendent? Supreme? Ultimate? Mega? Imperial? Grand?

I meant for the UBER pokemon themselves, not the evolutionary stage. As in, what is Xth-level Tyranitar going to be called?

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Pokemon Trainer (Level 5)

- 1st Xth Stage/Veteran upgrade is now available. Legendary Pokemon do not evolve, but can be Veterans.
- 1st custom move availability.

I think I love you, AB. This means I only need to get Breeder level 2! I could get three levels of Slayer and five Half-Demon if I so choose!

Can I have your babies?

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Originally Posted by Armored Bishoujo

Giving a Pokemon the Almighty type is something quite strange. I really want to say no outright because Almighty is the rightful owner of demonic and angelic beings and Boss Monsters, not humans and Pokemon. On the other hand, if you can provide a good enough theory on how a Pokemon can be the Almighty type, I'm willing to accept it when you complete it.

Does this mean you approve the Ability I proposed? Because you know, if you do, there's really not much point to making this pokemon Almighty. I'd just have to add a line that says it only takes 1x damage from anything. In fact, I could've done that from the beginning, but an Almighty-type pokemon is just something I could not pass up.

Well, let's see... I'm thinking lab experiment. My character is a Researcher, after all (well, technically she was just an inventor, but changing her into a researcher is no trouble at all). I'm thinking an employee of Ricewood's. Tentative name: Sophie.

Details... details... Okay, I'm going to go out on a limb here, see what you think: perhaps Ricewood Masterworks is experimenting with Demonic DNA (retrieved from sites where one of the Kimonos have been wounded, or maybe they just asked nicely). The result is a Demonic Almighty-type pokemon.

I'm thinking your answer's going to be no, but what the hell. I'll keep on trying to flesh this out before you respond to it.

Oh! Oh! Better idea! It's a newly-discovered pokemon that can change types at a whim. So it's not an Almighty-type per se. Rather, it's any type it needs to be in order to recieve 1x damage from any given attack.

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- 1st Signature Technique (Level 4) ~ You're starting to tap into your true power.
- 1st Love Technique (Level 4) ~ Hey! I think someone likes you!
- 2nd Signature Technique (Level 8) ~ You're as strong as most mid-ranking officers.
- 2nd Love Technique (Level 9) ~ Things are getting hot and heavy.
- 3rd Signature Technique (Level 12) ~ Not feeling unstoppable enough yet?
- 3rd Love Technique (Level 13) ~ Forever in love...unless you do something stupid.

That... well, if Pokemon Co-Ops are included in this, I'm kinda screwed aren't I? I already have one Co-Op, and I'm getting another one for Dialga's Time Distortion. But I wanted at least two more so I could give Pierce a thematically appropriate Signature Technique and another that is completely insane. I mean, mind-blowingly insane, I just can't pass it up.

Also, how does this apply to Pierce? He already has two Love Techniques, after all. I guess when he reaches level 9 he won't get another one? Or does I have to pick one to stick with until he reaches level 9?

Hm... going to have to figure out what to do with Aria if I can't give her a Love Technique or a Pokemon Co-Op...

Which reminds me,

Pokemon Co-Op (Dialga)
Time Distortion: Dialga makes Time go all FUBAR for five turns.
Effect: Enemy Paradigm Shifts last for 1 turn, ally Paradigm Shifts are unaffected. If an enemy uses a move that lasts a set number of turns (buff move, Signature Technique, Synchronization Technique), the duration is halved. Allies no longer have cooldown or charge-up periods for moves. Enemy cooldown and charge-up periods are doubled. Enemy status effects apply twice in one turn. Ally status effects apply every two turns. Time Distortion lasts for five turns.
Consumes 70/100 Rage Points.

Thought about making it double the duration of ally moves that last a set number of turns (Barrier, Maid to Mistress, Great Escape, or attack moves like Whitney's Black Hole) but decided against it since that would ramp up the RP cost far too much. As it is, the thing is probably too powerful for 70 RPs.

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- Use Aura Reading to find out what most NPCs think of you. Impact could use this to find potential allies for his evil emergence, for example.

This is going to be interesting. Pierce is going to want to use it on everyone after the events of his sidequest.

Question: can we get more Signature Sequences when we pick our Demonic upgrades?

Pierce might wanna go for sheer power or some shit that warps space. Man, it's going to take a while to figure something out.

Geminex · 06-29-2010, 09:26 AM

Wheee! Survived the flight, slightly jetlagged, but nothing too severe. Time to get back to exercising my reign of terror.

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Seriously now, it's situational, you're saying? I didn't realize that every other single pokemon we have is so versatile! We always use any of our pokemon in any given situation, right?

More situational than most other pokemon, I'd say. Most pokemon have more than just one use, whereas your anti-cheater would be just that: An anti-cheater. Good against assholes, but not much else. Question is just how many assholes we'll be facing.

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You should probably PM Gem and mock him for not taking the time to read the walls of text and thus all details relevant to him. Being a "evil genius" is no excuse for not doing his homework. =P

Well excuuuuse me, Princess; I was too busy flying through the air for a total of 22 hours to fullfill my evil-genius duties. I'll make it up to you, though, I'll fullfill them extra-vigorously for the next few days. In fact, let me get right on that. (And Matt, fine. Sorry for not noticing, got confused.)

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Dude, I spent most of the "wall of text" summing up the rules stipulations that AB made, asking questions, and clarifying them for everyone's sake. At least take the time to read the stuff. It's good for you.

Y'know what I think? I'll tell you what I think. I think that you and Dracorion spent the last few pages having a "Who can be the whiniest little bitch" competition. And you won. Congratulations.

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And I also said and quoted that you're contractually not allowed to point your rage at me for anything Mollesk based.

See, Drac sometimes does something like this. He takes something I say, some quote, some minor detail and tries to misconstrue it as an obstacle to my... operations. Thing about that is, you're creating something out of nothing, or trying to. You're telling me there's a barrier, and then you're weakly justifying that barrier. But see, it's not a very well-supported barrier. It's crumbling and unimpressive and when you look closely you realise, it's not actually there. The only way it could... hinder me is if I agreed with you that, yes indeed, the quotes and details you've so meticulously cited are valid reasons to demand my... cessation, if I agreed that there's a barrier there. Of course, if that were the case were, if your protests were based on a formal agreement or promise, then, I assure you, I would not be attempting my protests in the first place. The fact that I'm acting in a certain manner should be enough of an indicator that I think my actions are... justified. And I do. Your protests are immaterial, your wall is nonexistent. In the spirit of generosity I offered to give you a chance to prove my mollesk-related protests wrong. You had that chance, failed. I said that I had forgotten my criticism, that was true for the time being. But then... I remembered, if you will. There's nothing contractual there, friend. It's not nearly as absolute as you'd like me to believe. Quite the opposite; like I said, it's immaterial. And my protests... stand.

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I would hardly call it biting. More like talking back to the hand that feeds me.

If this were a real-life relationship this would be the part where you get a tattoo and piercings, just to spite me.

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Hammering out the clusterfuck of upgrades into something balanced will be all of our jobs. After all, they're all our upgrades, right?

Yes. Yeeeesssss....
You have chosen well, milord. I will go out. I will read, model, analyse...
I will create...
BALANCE!

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This is going to be interesting. Pierce is going to want to use it on everyone after the events of his sidequest.

The way AB described it, it only works on NPCs. No Impact mind-reading for you. You're gonna have to find a better way to justify Pierce's distrust, friggin' oath-breaker.

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Pierce might wanna go for sheer power or some shit that warps space. Man, it's going to take a while to figure something out.

Usually, I'd protest that Pierce isn't nearly awesome enough for that, but fair enough. I really don't mind too much. More power for Pierce means more power for me, yah?
In fact, if you really need more sigtech slots, maybe AB'd agree to letting you purchase another sigtech at the cost of a level-up. Meaning that instead of getting a level in a class upon levelup, you'd design and get another sigtech.

How did the custom-move discussion end, by the way? Do trainers still get the choice between a Co-Op technique, or a rage-free custom move, instead of a signature technique?

In regards to my magatama...
I'm thinking control (surprise surprise). Not a lot of "in your face" force, but the ability to
a) find out stuff about the enemy, maybe enhanced aura scanning, analysis, and even mild precognition
b) influence the enemy's morale, tactics and targetting
c) strike very precisely at certain elements of the enemy force. Not to deal much damage overall, but to hinder specialists and supporters, to modify the flow of their reinforcements, to apply overwhelming force in a single place, should it become necessary
d) support the rest of the party (not certain how)
Yeah. Pretty much manipulate the flow of battle. It's a lot, but I've got a lot of levels to fit it in. Also, since the 5th Slayer level is just the RDPA, could I take that level, and then drop it as soon as we reach demon? (Possibly justified by some event or another that makes it impossible for Impact to use the power armor anymore, or maybe he just refuses to.)

And finally, what the hell is "ability shift" gonna be? Because if it involves giving pokemon abilities that they don't have natually, fuck that. Abilities aren't balanced at all, they're usually either thematic, or they compensate for a pokemon's weaknesses, or they accacerbate a pokemon's intended role. Shifting them around would be a major, major thing.

Dracorion · 06-29-2010, 09:55 AM

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