character VERSUS character VERSUS another character VERSUS your mother

[Mirai Gen]

Also, game mechanics tend to be breakable, so no one wins or everyone gets wiped out easily.

This is the main reason I mostly stay out of this thread, because RPGs are especially breakable so Cloud wins every match because he's literally impossible to kill and nobody spent more time making him impossible to kill than the people who advocate that he'd win in any fight.

[Fifthfiend]

Originally Posted by Krylo

If you're taking personality and alliances into account, then taking these people as actual living humans:

FF4--Kain. He's the only one willing to kill the others.

FF6--Shadow. Again, the only one willing to kill the others.

FF7--Vincent. Most likely to kill the others, but not terribly likely. However, he'd have the least compunctions about it. Turning into Chaos would remove all compunctions.

FF8--They all fight half-assedly because none of them can live with the thought of killing any others. Ergo, whoever DOES win just offs themselves anyway, it's pointless.

FF9--Amarant would have no problem team killing. Freya has a chance as well.

FF10--Tidus. Because Tidus is the only one that Auron would refuse to kill due to the pact with Tidus's father.

FF12--Vaan, Ashe, and Penelo wouldn't kill anyone. Balthier wouldn't kill Fran, and would have compunctions about the others. Basche wouldn't kill Ashe and would have compunctions about the others. Fran wouldn't kill Balthier, but would probably be totally ok with killing everyone else. Therefore, Balthier and Fran survive, and if the rules are such that they are killed if they refuse to fight--they die together.

Or Balthier saves the day in some suicidal attempt.


See the thing about fights, is that forsaking a HUGE difference in skill/strength/speed, such differences matter little compared to who is most willing to seriously wound their opponents.

In a fight where such things are explicitly stated as being part of the fight, we, therefore, must assume that the character who is most willing to pull the trigger is going to be the only one who's going to walk away from this alive, as any hesitation on the part of the others is going to end with their deaths.

The thing with this is that the one most likely willing to kill the others will tend to be the one the others are most willing to kill. Like in the Chrono cast Magus is basically fucked because pretty much as soon as he takes a swing, every other character going to team up to kill him. It's not as pronounced in the other cases but with say FF4, Cecil might be hesitant to take a swing at Kain but I figure Tellah, Rydia, at least Palom if not Porom, and at least a couple others I'm not thinking of are gonna be of an all too pragmatic mindset about the guy who tried to kill them a couple of times. Shadow's... an iffier case, I see it playing out maybe a couple of different ways, but at least one of them has the rest of the team realizing they never did know much at all about that dude.

Oh! Also, Shadow is unlikely to kill Relm. And if he tries his dog'll probably bite his nuts off.

Originally Posted by Mirai Gen

This is the main reason I mostly stay out of this thread, because RPGs are especially breakable so Cloud wins every match because he's literally impossible to kill and nobody spent more time making him impossible to kill than the people who advocate that he'd win in any fight.

If we're talking mechanics I tend to disagree on the grounds that I think the FFX characters are even more stupendously broken due to any one character potentially having every single other character's full ability set.

Maybe FF12 characters are worse? I never played that one so I don't know.

[Nique]

If we're talking mechanics I tend to disagree on the grounds that I think the FFX characters are even more stupendously broken due to any one character potentially having every single other character's full ability set.

EVERY FF has it's tweaks. Just off the top of my head, 5 allows you to master each job class if you are willing to put the man-hours behind it, pretty much like 10 except even moreso (I don't know why I used man-hours here it just seemed appropriate ok?). If you are creative with equipping materia any charecter in 7 can do anything. I mean, really, by the end of the game these people should be a worse threat to the planet just walking around than Sephiroth ever could be. 8's junction system similarly makes your charecter(s) of choice invincible... literally.

In fact that's an interesting dilemma. 8 is the only game in the series I know of that has a spell specifically for making you immune to everything. Are the players in this match allowed this spell?

Actually, I am going to say that with 10, there is a bit more power added to the characters because of what Fifth said. I mean, there is no need to even job change because you have instant access to everything at all times once you have given everyone every ability.

EDIT: on 12; It is so very difficult to get into. Everytime I try it, I somehow wake up later and have somehow switched over to FF4 or Chrono Trigger or something. It's weird! And boring!

[Mesden]

Originally Posted by Mirai Gen

This is the main reason I mostly stay out of this thread, because RPGs are especially breakable so Cloud wins every match because he's literally impossible to kill and nobody spent more time making him impossible to kill than the people who advocate that he'd win in any fight.

Actually the reason he's mostly impossible to kill is something every FF7 character can do, game mechanic wise.

[Regulus Tera]

Originally Posted by Krylo

In a fight where such things are explicitly stated as being part of the fight, we, therefore, must assume that the character who is most willing to pull the trigger is going to be the only one who's going to walk away from this alive, as any hesitation on the part of the others is going to end with their deaths.

What Fifth said. Plus, Snake's what if scenarios make for quite a more interesting read than "Vincent pulls the trigger BAM! everyone else is dead".

To expand: while it is true that some characters are more willing to get their hands bathed in blood than others, you're simplifying their motivations. Shadow obliterating everyone obliges us to assume he wouldn't hesitate towards executing Relm, which is far too unlikely. Actual living humans are more complex than just "hey I have the power let's use this skill and make the most of it!".

Actual living humans act on more than just survival instincts.

Originally Posted by Nique

EDIT: on 12; It is so very difficult to get into. Everytime I try it, I somehow wake up later and have somehow switched over to FF4 or Chrono Trigger or something. It's weird! And boring!

You, sir, have no sense of taste.

Please carry on.

[IHateMakingNames]

Well, when we throw characters into an inexplicable battle to the death, normally we assume they are motivated enough to kill each other. Why else are they fighting to the death? It's hard to explain why they are killing each other, but will go out of their way to protect some one they will just kill in a minute anyway. I suppose you could create some sort of scenario where death is just losing, and there is no real consequence, and the winner gets something, so they would fight and stick to their morals.

Assuming even that, choices are still they same for FF matches. Main characters are just the stronger ones, and everyone likes them the most.

[Krylo]

Originally Posted by Fifthfiend

Shadow's... an iffier case, I see it playing out maybe a couple of different ways, but at least one of them has the rest of the team realizing they never did know much at all about that dude.

Oh! Also, Shadow is unlikely to kill Relm. And if he tries his dog'll probably bite his nuts off.

I'll give you Magus and Kain, but honestly, the FF6 team has decided once, already, to risk their lives to keep Shadow alive, and there's nothing in the game showing that Shadow would have any kind of mercy toward Relm, despite their connection.

Yes I know what it is, but Shadow only ever shows any kind of caring toward his dog.

Further, with one of the highest damage output skills, which also happens to be ranged, and his ability to turn invisible/other effects with skeans, high evasion, and the fact that interceptor will protect him and attack his enemies, he has the skills to be a good contender regardless.

Actual living humans act on more than just survival instincts.

Exactly the point of my entire argument.

I don't see Celes ever killing Locke. I don't see Terra ever killing anyone in her team. I don't see Cyan ever killing Terra, Gau, Sabin, or Relm. I don't see Locke ever killing Terra or Celes. I don't see Edgar ever... well you get the point.

In a fight where the way people feel about each other actually matters, where we are to assume that they still have their emotional connections to each other, we have to look at which one is least likely to act on anything more than survival instinct and kill the others.

So long as any of the others are looking at that person and seeing a friend or ex-friend and NOT just another obstacle to be taken down, the people I've pointed out have a massive advantage.

Originally Posted by IHMN

Assuming even that, choices are still they same for FF matches. Main characters are just the stronger ones, and everyone likes them the most.

Pretty much. Except for 10 and 12.

[Meister]

Originally Posted by Fifthfiend

If we're talking mechanics I tend to disagree on the grounds that I think the FFX characters are even more stupendously broken due to any one character potentially having every single other character's full ability set.

Maybe FF12 characters are worse? I never played that one so I don't know.

By that definition FF12 characters are even more broken because every single character there can also have every other character's full ability set and you'll very likely actually achieve get to that point during a normal playthrough unless you're deliberately holding back.

[Mesden]

Yeah in 10 you had to work really damn hard to get everyone past everyone else's sphere grids and all the secret sphere grids and junk, whereas in 12 you get to buy an item that basically says "Here's all the license points you'll ever need so now everyone can be exactly the same."

I'd give it to Balthier though because he uses a gun a lot. >>

[Nique]

...This is getting complicated.