The Big Big Thread of Religious Discussion

[Azisien]

However, in the end, and all mathematics aside, String Theory is entirely unfalsifyable.

Isn't that what we're using the new particle accelerator for, though? To verify parts of the theory that have remained untestable for a long time?

Entirely unfalsifiable? Not from what I've read.

Strings aren't supposed to be invisible, nor are the extra spatial dimensions preposed by the theory. A sufficiently powerful particle accelerator could likely run verification experiments, but we're a while away from that. I believe there are also some theory-specific phenomena that would be easier to test, which could disprove the theory altogether.

The Large Hadron Collider is supposed to be capable of testing some characteristics that would exist within string theory, and note it's been a while since I've read up on the specifics myself, but as far as I can remember right now the predicted phenomena it can verify can also exist in non-string theory models. Supersymmetry, for instance. Saying that though, verification of supersymmetry is supporting evidence for string theory.

I'm personally excited about the hopeful verification of the Higgs boson. Gravitons, that'd be great too.

Uh, oh right, something about a religious discussion or something...

Care to enlighten me about the punishment of ignorance? Because if non-believers go to "hell," I really feel sorry for the millions of people stuck in hell for eternity because they've never even heard of Christianity/Judaism/Islam/etc. Or limbo. Take one for the team I guess.

[I_Like_Swordchucks]

Hmmm. I'm a Christian. Possibly even what many would consider a member of the "religious right". I'm also a scientist, a molecular biologist to be specific, and I did a minor in philosophy. After many debates the main conclusion that I can come to is that nobody has ever come to a solid conclusion, so how on earth will I? When it comes to religious discussion, the most logical oriented person fails at logic and it inevitably falls into the 'gut feeling' to whether or not you believe. Take for instance:

Originally Posted by krylo

Religion is, and has been, a constant source of hate and strife just as much as it has been a source of hope and love. The Crusades. The Heresay Examinations. The Witch Trials. Great degrees of sexism. The villification and enslavement of the human sex drive--which leads to all kinds of other problems. Or even things as small as social ostracization and the splitting of society amongst invisible and man made lines of belief. If you want to call that little.

It's fun to say that you can believe what you want so long as you don't hurt anyone else, but the fact of the matter is that religion, as a whole, IS HURTING PEOPLE RIGHT NOW AS WE TYPE THIS.

No offense krylo, but thats a load of malarky. The same thing can be said of alcohol. At this very moment, somebody (many people) are suffering due to the existance of alcohol. Yet its the best disinfectant, a major chemical for use in science, a renewable and potentially cheap source of fuel, and is responsible for that wonderful smell in freshly baked bread. Religion hurts people, to be sure, but it helps a whole lot of people as well. My church, for instance, built a school for orphans in Haiti and currently funds the facility in materials, food, and training for teachers. My church also runs a drop in center on weekends so homeless people and troubled teens have a roof over their heads, food to eat, and games to play. Granted, many people in my church are incredibly irritating, as many people (religious and non-religious alike) are very closed minded, but I think an overall good effect is made. Bad people do not mean the whole thing is bad.

The only reason I can give to accept God and Jesus and the whole thing is the personal experience. People get changed for the better because of faith in God. It's also been done in a study that people of faith tend to cope with stress and problems and maintain happiness better than people without faith. Maybe thats purely psychological, or maybe its because once you've experienced God and you realize things about it you have a certainty and a knowing beyond what others can understand. Its impossible to explain, but when you simply know you're right, life is a lot easier to live.

And as for the whole "annoying proselytizing" thing, if you felt for sure that you knew the truth, wouldn't you want everyone else to know as well? I don't know anybody on this forum, but I wouldn't wish hell on any of you. In fact, I think most of you are decent people. So if I knew for sure that I knew the secret to heaven, what kind of horrible person would I be if I didn't want as many people as possible to join me? So yeah, its not about 'I'm right, you're wrong'. It's about 'I care for you and I want you to be happy'. I'm confused as to why people get offended about that... you should consider it a compliment.

[Bob The Mercenary]

Exactly! Thank you for putting it into words.

[Mesden]

It's not so much that people get mad that you tell them you would like for them to be Christian, because you think it'd be for the better.

Most people get angry about people telling them to be Christian, when, as far as they're concerned, they know they're right. I don't remember the verse, but it went something like "Invite them to your faith, if they decline, brush off your boots and move on" or something of the like, which, honestly, is disregarded alot.

I've been yelled at that I will go to hell from people I love and still love -- because I'm agnostic. I don't know how to tell you what kind of feeling this god inspired move implaced on me, but let me assure you, Religion isn't always good or always bad -- it's both all the time, and it's hard to tell when one outweighs the other.

[Azisien]

It's also been done in a study that people of faith tend to cope with stress and problems and maintain happiness better than people without faith. Maybe thats purely psychological, or maybe its because once you've experienced God and you realize things about it you have a certainty and a knowing beyond what others can understand.

I think it's as simple as confidence. After all, who can deal with stress and problems more, and maintains happiness more, than someone who is confidence? It doesn't even sound unreasonable to me to figure that blind faith in the notion that "everything's gonna be okay" would cause a significant increase in confidence.

[The Kneumatic Pnight]

Originally Posted by Lockeownzj00

Isn't that what we're using the new particle accelerator for, though? To verify parts of the theory that have remained untestable for a long time?

Very simply, in a sense we can attempt to verify some predictions made by the theory. Which would support it, yes.

[Edit: Azisien got about here before me. But nonetheless... something.]

But on a very real level, we are nowhere near the level of technology required to directly observe strings or their effects.

Which means that, insomuch as we can lend that much credence to String Theory by finding what it predicts, any other mathematical model that incorporates the new state of the universe that we find will be equally as valid as String Theory itself.

And so on and so forth until somewhere down the line we can actually look for strings.

And no particle accelerator, no matter how new, will enable this directly, because we just can't see things that small, at least not for a while. It would take a revolution in the technology we use to detect things themselves -- a vastly new method. This is, of course, assuming we can even ever see strings directly.

It's quite possible that we will never be able to, and would have to search for their equally miniscule (though concievably less restricted [see: quark confinement]) effects of strings. Which is a considerably larger pain in the ass.

Strings are, approximately, (to use the unnecessarily long form) 100,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 (1 x 10e26) times smaller than an atom, or approximately 100,000,000,000,000,000 (1 x 10e17) times smaller than the smallest thing we've ever measured. So we're approximately 35% of the way there.

Welcome to perspective.

Now, it may happen, and sooner than we may think. And if and when it does become falsifyable, then it may become legitimate science (or alternately, an incorrect theory), but until then it's philosophy with numbers.

[Lady Cygnet]

Originally Posted by Mesden

Again, that just can't fly. He's a sadist because it works for him! No, I'm sorry, a loving God would not torture his devout servant just to prove a point to SATAN that his people are followers. That sounds like a petty God trying to prove a point for the sake of proving a point -- by RUINING THIS MAN'S LIFE.

I didn't really want to get in on this, but God did not torture Job. God allowed Satan to do all that he did to Job. The point was that Satan felt sure that he could make Job, a devout follower of God, turn away from God. At first, it was just material things...but Job wouldn't turn away. That wasn't good enough for Satan, so he took away Job's children...but again, Job didn't curse God and turn away. Satan still wasn't satisfied, so he caused Job to become so ill that he cursed the day of his birth and begged for death...but even in the end, he still wouldn't curse God.

And after Satan finally gave up, God gave Job twice as much as what Satan took away from him, except for the children--he had 10 children before, and he had 10 children again. (reference)

~*~

The question of why bad things happen to good people has been debated for a very long time. Rabbi Harold Kushner even wrote a book about it. No human knows for certain why bad things happen to people, good or otherwise. One could assume that bad things are a natural consequence of having free will, or that God is not all-powerful, or that God is all-powerful, but because of His nature, He does not break the rules that He created at the beginning of the universe to eliminate the bad things.

This may not answer any question already put forth, but who would want to live in a world where we have no free will and do exactly what God says all of the time? One of the most beautiful things about human beings is our ability to analyze information, think, decide for ourselves what we choose to believe, and then decide how we will act as a result of our conclusions. Perhaps God feels the same way and wouldn't want a world full of drones and yes-men and yes-women who would do His will without question or thought for how their actions and reactions would affect others.

Perhaps life is something like an ant farm. It would be sadistically cruel to fill the ant farm with water, but it would also be cruel to be constantly sticking one's hands in the farm to take away any and all challenges in the ants's lives. Without any challenges, life becomes a drudgery that no longer requires any conscious thought.

[Lockeownzj00]

Nature of God

Originally Posted by Bob the Mercenary

Mesden asked more than once something to the effect of "if God loves us perfectly, why does he put evildoers in hell for an eternity of pain?" For the simple reason that he puts believers in heaven. If believers get to go to a perfect world, why should non-believers not get the exact opposite?

So this God is such a fickle creature that it actually cares so much about people acknowledging "him" that it sends some to an eternal place of fire and brimstone? So he's a creature of infinite power, but he's nothing like us, and we can't use human logic to understand him. Yet he gets offended when someone ignores him?

[Mesden]

Originally Posted by Lady Cygnet

I didn't really want to get in on this, but God did not torture Job. God allowed Satan to do all that he did to Job. The point was that Satan felt sure that he could make Job, a devout follower of God, turn away from God. At first, it was just material things...but Job wouldn't turn away. That wasn't good enough for Satan, so he took away Job's children...but again, Job didn't curse God and turn away. Satan still wasn't satisfied, so he caused Job to become so ill that he cursed the day of his birth and begged for death...but even in the end, he still wouldn't curse God.

And after Satan finally gave up, God gave Job twice as much as what Satan took away from him, except for the children--he had 10 children before, and he had 10 children again. (reference)

That does not in any way make it okay. He fervently allows Satan to torture this man to prove a point? What? No, I mean, that's just a cruel test. Cruel when you could stop it, sicne your omnisciousness ALREADY KNEW. It just doesn't fit.

The question of why bad things happen to good people has been debated for a very long time. Rabbi Harold Kushner even wrote a book about it. No human knows for certain why bad things happen to people, good or otherwise. One could assume that bad things are a natural consequence of having free will, or that God is not all-powerful, or that God is all-powerful, but because of His nature, He does not break the rules that He created at the beginning of the universe to eliminate the bad things.

This may not answer any question already put forth, but who would want to live in a world where we have no free will and do exactly what God says all of the time?

One of the most beautiful things about human beings is our ability to analyze information, think, decide for ourselves what we choose to believe, and then decide how we will act as a result of our conclusions. Perhaps God feels the same way and wouldn't want a world full of drones and yes-men and yes-women who would do His will without question or thought for how their actions and reactions would affect others.

If God's Omniscious, then 'real' free will unto him doesn't work. If he limits himself for only the reason to watch this little system set up, then, well, let's use your analogy--

Perhaps life is something like an ant farm. It would be sadistically cruel to fill the ant farm with water, but it would also be cruel to be constantly sticking one's hands in the farm to take away any and all challenges in the ants's lives. Without any challenges, life becomes a drudgery that no longer requires any conscious thought.

We as being are just his ants, and he toys, and yes TOYS with us when he wants to.

Back in the biblical days, it's okay for God to just make a sweeping plague or perform terrible acts of cruelty to entire people for petty reasons (Kill all the first borns because the Pharoah is stubborn? Terrible). But when it comes to us, in any documented time ever, all we get is personal inspiration and a Bible, which has blatant verses of *TERRIBLE* things of acceptable behavior, which is still the word of an All Loving God?

I don't see an All Loving God through this. Maybe a God -- who knows, but nowhere can I concieve this being I've come to see and read about is All Loving.


Edit for Locke's Last Statement: Kind of repeating things, in a fashion.

EditEdit: I need sleep, Get back to you guys tomorrow night.

[ZAKtheGeek]

The only reason I can give to accept God and Jesus and the whole thing is the personal experience. People get changed for the better because of faith in God. It's also been done in a study that people of faith tend to cope with stress and problems and maintain happiness better than people without faith. Maybe thats purely psychological, or maybe its because once you've experienced God and you realize things about it you have a certainty and a knowing beyond what others can understand. Its impossible to explain, but when you simply know you're right, life is a lot easier to live.

Let me start by saying that I'm not trying to be an intolerant ass. But just try seeing this through my eyes. Piece by piece:

It's also been done in a study that people of faith tend to cope with stress and problems and maintain happiness better than people without faith.

That's because there are no real problems when you're destined to spend eternity in paradise with your creator-superbeing. You really don't need to be concerned about the "real" world all that much.

Maybe thats purely psychological, or maybe its because once you've experienced God and you realize things about it you have a certainty and a knowing beyond what others can understand. Its impossible to explain, but when you simply know you're right, life is a lot easier to live.

Or maybe you're just unshakably deluded into a comforting mindset. That's why it's impossible to explain, and that's why it's easier to live.

This idea is also supported by some of the people that said they believe what they do because it gives them comfort and answers difficult questions. I'm still looking for other answers, but I'm not seeing a whole lot of them.

Maybe I am wrong. Maybe I'll burn in hell for eternity because I didn't accept G&J as my homies. Maybe I'm misinterpreting all of this. But seriously, if you look at this from an outside perspective and try to see it as I see it? Pretty damn convincing.