Icelandic Mafia

[Demonlink2]

So this has come down to a game of What If, and Zilla's winning/won?

I've seen WIFOMs that were less sticky than this situation, but let's sort it out.

Both proposed situations require 1 specific character to be masoned to Rokrin. One of these is Fenris, fitting the classic Mason Traitor right down to the mason not voting, and the other requires an additional variable, a classic case of Always Wrong Cop or Sometimes Wrong Cop masoned to Rokrin. While I can't say that I care for either option (Well okay Secretsull's option is tempting as it leaves both people dead), Secret's actions are ringing truer than I thought.

A mafiate rarely votes himself, let alone another mafiate, when it's clear that the argument isn't completely lost. Being a mafiate for probably as many times as Mesden at this point, you start to juts assume the mindset completely. And Fenris showed us how it works when votes are piling up on you. You either completely fight it, or you give in entirely. As secret has done neither, I am slightly swayed to not vote for him, but that puts me right back at his post. I doubt secret has any supersecret powers, beyond logic or masonry, but Moogle is coming off kinda strong. I'm not a big fan of jumping straight to conclusions though, so I'll leave it at FoS: MoogleB

[Zilla]

Originally Posted by Demonlink2

So this has come down to a game of What If, and Zilla's winning/won?

What?

I've seen WIFOMs that were less sticky than this situation, but let's sort it out.

Both proposed situations require 1 specific character to be masoned to Rokrin.

That's not the point. The point is that SecretSkull either pulled mason traitor out of nowhere or he knew it because he and Fenris are scumbuddies. Look at Secretskull's post, it's not about deducing that Fenris was a mason traitor, HE TAKES IT AS COMMON KNOWLEDGE.

One of these is Fenris, fitting the classic Mason Traitor right down to the mason not voting, and the other requires an additional variable, a classic case of Always Wrong Cop or Sometimes Wrong Cop masoned to Rokrin. While I can't say that I care for either option (Well okay Secretsull's option is tempting as it leaves both people dead), Secret's actions are ringing truer than I thought.

MASSIVE FOS: Demonlink2 This looks so blatantly like scum defending scum that I feel bad even having to point it out.

A mafiate rarely votes himself, let alone another mafiate,

Woah woah WOAH, read that again. Let ALONE another mafiate? The construction of this sentence, while even based on a faulty premise, is absurd. Firstly, mafia vote for themselves tactically, it's plain ignorant to say they don't, and try to push that as clearing Secretskull. That's the whole point. Secondly, mafia's going to vote for their scum buddy to gain credit with town, only dumb scum wouldn't abandon ship and try to save themselves.

when it's clear that the argument isn't completely lost.

It's never over until the fat lady... or in this case, the SAD choir, sings.

Being a mafiate for probably as many times as Mesden at this point, you start to juts assume the mindset completely. And Fenris showed us how it works when votes are piling up on you. You either completely fight it, or you give in entirely.

Either you're being an ignorant newbie or you're trying to construct a falsehood to prop up your arguments; there is no universal scum reaction because as soon as something looks scummy, scum players won't do it, ESPECIALLY IN THE SAME GAME, not to mention defensiveness is applicable to any role. Most scum try to divert attention, and successful scum can draw it off without implicating anybody else. Fenris had the problem of a dead PO whose bloody hands pointed in his direction, so he had no choice but to either "completely fight it or give in entirely."

As secret has done neither, I am slightly swayed to not vote for him, but that puts me right back at his post.

Your soft words are implicative enough. You're not "slightly swayed," you're trying to play the part of a convinced weathervane townie to draw off suspicion on him.

I doubt secret has any supersecret powers, beyond logic or masonry

Or knowing who else is scum with him.

but Moogle is coming off kinda strong. I'm not a big fan of jumping straight to conclusions though, so I'll leave it at FoS: MoogleB

Moogle's coming off kind of weak, which is my whole case on him, but I'm pretty convinced right now that he's not scum, just a townie with the wrong idea. Moogle is only scum in that he's suggested a less direct method of killing Secretskull. As per this post, you've far surpassed him as potential lynch candidate.

Right now, the only thing that will clear your name is clearing SecretSkull, because this post IS NOT TOWN. This is a scum-defense post if I've ever seen one.

[Zilla]

Originally Posted by Demonlink2

Hmm, I suppose while that is a fairly logical assumption, it's also entirely speculation on based on the word of 2 dead guys. And it doesn't help that I know nothing of music, let alone these Quartets, so I can't be the history buff for connecting bands and mason traitors to the game.

Also Why would a Quartet have 5 members? Seems kinda off, but I digress. We can assume it's one down and 4 more to go.

Even so, I'm not entirely sure Fenris is this Mason Traitor. I can see where you're coming from, with Fenris all but confirmed mafia and Rokrin not voting him still, but plenty of people do that. The ones who don't vote are as suspicious as the ones who constantly change their votes. For instance, one could take Cephrir. He was incredibly active day 1, yet day 2 comes around and he only managed to Vote Rokrin then change it to Zilla before vanishing from the game. Admittedly, day 1 was longer than day 2, but still. Cephrir just seems a bit too...lynch-happy.

FoS: Cephrir

I was rereading and this post caught my eye too, it's just like this recent post, full of soft refutations with no logic, with a constant undertone of "SecretSkull is fine, look who else is suspicious!" Then you proceed to FoS a dead townie, based on what you can drum up about him. Scum's always looking for a patsy townie to pin the lynch onto, I believe that was an attempt, as was this one to try to push for someone who was shown to have standing arguments against him.

[Zilla]

Once again, let's take a look at the post with the slip.

Originally Posted by secretskull

Lost? Confused? It's time for secretskull (TM)! I've been sick for a while, but I'm back, and I know who to vote for.

Vote: Moogle

Fun Fact: The people who lament the loss of the PO, (or cheer for the death of the mafia), are often scum in themselves. It is a very easy way of looking innocent to the town, while your normal post contains very little substance.

Not a bad play here, it's a legitimate sounding accusation, and I've used it and caught scum before. It can be reverse engineered to be used to look townie though.

It wasn't only the fact that he did this of course, it was the way he did it. It was a bit off putting. He is also in the game for just enough to avoid the lurker flag, but nearly all that he does is vote.

More well done analysis, but the best way to hide if the lynch goes sour, because nobody can fault you for voting for him for such logical reasoning.

He defended Fenris while subtly pushing for the PO roleclaim that never came.

Funny, I get the vibe the Zilla 1 was setting up some kind of trap in this regard, and he sprung it. If I were her, I would have waited to see who else fell in the trap though.


AND NOW

THE JUICY PART

He wasn't quite as blatant as Rokrin, (whom I suspect was masoned TO Mason Traitor Fenris), but still did a fairly good job of it, trying to off Zilla quickly.

There is NO WAY this post talks about Fenris being a mason traitor as speculation, that would be backwards from your reasoning. You are reasoning that Rokrin's defensiveness is explained in hindsight because Fenris was killed and he was a mason traitor, thus explaining Rokrin's odd behavior. To argue that you derived that Fenris was a mason traitor from this is circular logic, as you used the fact that Fenris was a mason traitor to clear Rokrin of his posts.

(whom I suspect was masoned TO Mason Traitor Fenris),

You CAN NOT tell me you said this because you had figured out that Fenris was Mason Traitor, or else you would have explained it. You forgot that Fenris hadn't been announced what role he was when he died and you assumed it had been public knowledge. There is no other explanation.

There's the further matter that if Moogle wanted me dead and was a part of the mafia, why would he bother voting for me? That makes no sense at all. If he was part of the mafia, he would know I was town, and wouldn't want his hands dirty when I died. Why would he publicly show that he was against me, and then have me killed? Moreover, why would the mafia have him vote for me and then kill me?





IN CONCLUSION:

SecretSkull and Demonlink2 are scum. The vig can kill one and we can lynch the other. I'd rather go for Secretskull and have the vig take care of Demonlink.

[secretskull]

Originally Posted by Zilla

You CAN NOT tell me you said this because you had figured out that Fenris was Mason Traitor, or else you would have explained it. You forgot that Fenris hadn't been announced what role he was when he died and you assumed it had been public knowledge. There is no other explanation.

This is quite funny from my point of view, you know? I assumed that most everyone could at least see the possibility of Fenris being traitor. Especially with Rokrin's actions. I didn't think it really required an explanation. I didn't think it would start all this. I really didn't think it.

I was dead wrong. Very much so.

I can see that you are dead set on lynching me Zilla. You've accused every person to not vote for me in a post of being scum,(I happen to agree on Moogle). You've accused both of them of being in an elaborate ruse with me. I think you've stretched the bounds of imagination enough. But hey, if you can convince the rest of the town to lynch me? Go ahead.

I could almost believe that this is all a huge smokescreen to move the lynching stage away from Moogle, (if so it worked), but I just can't see it happening. Not quite.

There's the further matter that if Moogle wanted me dead and was a part of the mafia, why would he bother voting for me? That makes no sense at all. If he was part of the mafia, he would know I was town, and wouldn't want his hands dirty when I died. Why would he publicly show that he was against me, and then have me killed? Moreover, why would the mafia have him vote for me and then kill me?

Are... Are you trying to clear moogle? Are you trying to prove that I'm scum with that?

[Zilla]

That's right, stand up for Demonlink, try to break the bonds that bind you two.

Once again.

(whom I suspect was masoned TO Mason Traitor Fenris),

That's saying "I assume because Fenris was a Mason Traitor and Rokrin was a mason, they were masoned." It does not say "I suspect Fenris was Rokrin's mason traitor." That's what you would say if you were town and didn't think Fenris being a mason traitor was common knowledge.

I am clearing Moogle. Moogle didn't stand up for you like Demonlink is, he suggested a slower, less sure way of killing you. I'm showing you how your logic on why Moogle is scum is wrong by answering your accusations.

You've accused every person to not vote for me in a post of being scum,(I happen to agree on Moogle).

I've accused Moogle for trying to delay your kill, I've accused Demonlink of outright defending and distracting, and doing further backward research, seeing this repeated in the past. A ton of people haven't even posted yet, I'm not calling them scum. I like your attempt to make me unpopular by telling them I'm calling them scum.

You've accused both of them of being in an elaborate ruse with me.

Marvelous! You mean THIS elaborate ruse you're emulating?

I could almost believe that this is all a huge smokescreen to move the lynching stage away from Moogle, (if so it worked), but I just can't see it happening. Not quite.

You can't have your cake and eat it too, but I see you're trying to do that by bringing it up and not committing to it. When I call you on it, you say "But I said I didn't actually think that was the case," but you're implying it.

I think you've stretched the bounds of imagination enough.

HA HA ha ha ha...

They said that in Bioshock Mafia too, the one where I identified four scum, a self-aligned, and the town dayvig on day one. Specifically, it came from the scum I pegged when I was arguing against them. They tried to discredit me with lines exactly like that when I pointed out exactly why they were scum.

Also, it's nice to see you weren't sincere about your self-vote, and quite the clever charade you put up with it. Please either eat the cake or put it away.

[Zilla]

Originally Posted by Demonlink2

This promises to be a quick game at the pace of no nights.

I want to vote Bananarama but that will get us nowhere fast, and Zilla's explanation of "Everything's a WIFOM" concerning Day 1 of all things is a little too shaky for me to place a vote on Fenris.

I don't know if she was joking or not, but until I hear otherwise Vote: Zilla for being srs in a non-srs day in a semi-srs manner. srsly.

I forgot that you tripped the trap Zilla I had set up also.

What's everyone else's call on this, Demon or Secret? I'm starting to want to lynch Demon instead.

[Demonlink2]

Riddle me this, Zilla.

Suppose for an instant that your fanciful tale is true, that Secret and I are "scum buddies"

1. What reason would I have to call him out on his conclusion that Fenris was a Mason Traitor? Honestly, where in your mind would you believe scum calling out scum is good at all when neither of them are suspected?

2. Suppose Moogle and yourself are scum. How is this situation any less logical than situation 1, a mafiate calling out their own when neither of them were suspected until I pointed it out? Why so obsessed that because Secret targeted Moogs and I can see where he's coming from now, that we're both scum? Hell, at this point I'd vote for both of you if I could do that. But, going by your statements, because you're talking and he isn't, you're the mafiate.

Originally Posted by zilla

A ton of people haven't even posted yet, I'm not calling them scum

Hey Moogle hasn't attempted to speak up much, I'm not calling him scum except here hypothetically, while Zilla's obviously scum because she's defending Moogle. Really, your whole scum buddies theory is hinging on the fact that I am now defending this man, the one I personally called out the logic on, is scum and since I can see where he's coming from, I'm therefore scum. Tell me if I missed something there, but it sounds like bad logic to me.

3. Your simple explanation "Rokrin was Masoned to a Broken PO who thought Fenris was clean" story is also lacking. Fenris was alive for 7 hours after your previous death, and the only person who cared so much as to defend him was Rokrin, no broken cop, nothing. And quite Frankly, would you trust the voice of a cop who states Fenris was clean, or the word of a dead cop who gave no implication for anything other than constantly voting him, giving no actual cause? This point is less important than the first two, since 7 hours is still a short time for a lynching, but I feel it still raises questions.

Why aren't you suspicious of the people not posting much at all? Scum enjoy a good shadow to hide in.

I'll leave this here for the Holiday, and resume this discussion at a later date then.

[secretskull]

Originally Posted by Zilla

Also, it's nice to see you weren't sincere about your self-vote

I'm still voting for myself aren't I? I keep my word. If you manage to convince the rest of the town that this theory is correct? All the more power to you. But so far, you've only got two other people voting for me. That makes 3, perhaps 4 if you count moogle, as he seemed to agree with you. (*Cough KeepplayingpeopleCough*

I've accused Moogle for trying to delay your kill, I've accused Demonlink of outright defending and distracting, and doing further backward research, seeing this repeated in the past. A ton of people haven't even posted yet, I'm not calling them scum. I like your attempt to make me unpopular by telling them I'm calling them scum.

For the record, when I referring to your accusations, I was referring to people who had actually posted without agreeing with you. I'm sorry if it wasn't clear enough.

I am clearing Moogle. Moogle didn't stand up for you like Demonlink is, he suggested a slower, less sure way of killing you. I'm showing you how your logic on why Moogle is scum is wrong by answering your accusations.

Yes, I can see that. The question is why? Clearing moogle doesn't make me more suspect. You can show reasons why you think moogle is innocent, but even if he were confirmed at this very second, it would prove nothing about me. You yourself admitted that my reasons were sound, at the very least they were sounder then whatever accusations were floating around at the time.

Would you care to clue me in? Why are you defending him? Is it just simple goodwill?

You can't have your cake and eat it too, but I see you're trying to do that by bringing it up and not committing to it. When I call you on it, you say "But I said I didn't actually think that was the case," but you're implying it.

Yes, I did mention this to see how you would react. I don't actually think that anyone would use such a long and roundabout plan to clear moogle.

[Zilla]

You didn't unvote Moogle, you're voting for Moogle right now.

Demonlink, you're being absurd and your only "proof" I'm scum is that I'm voting you. Settle down before you hurt yourself more. Honestly, if Secret's slip wasn't so damning, I'm more and more tempted to switch to demonlink instead just because he's got the scummy track record and is continuing to dig himself even deeper.

MORE PEOPLE NEED TO PLAY. This isn't the Secret Demon Zilla Moogle game, but we are all that have been posting.

Let's do a point-by-point on this.

Riddle me this, Zilla.

Suppose for an instant that your fanciful tale is true, that Secret and I are "scum buddies"

Horribly biased construction of this argument, note the colorful use of "fanciful" and the quote marks to indicate the "so-called" "scum buddies." This is petty though.

1. What reason would I have to call him out on his conclusion that Fenris was a Mason Traitor? Honestly, where in your mind would you believe scum calling out scum is good at all when neither of them are suspected?

Cred. You didn't expect anyone to jump on it. What reason do you have to back down from your initial position and randomly flail for another target like you've been doing? You even FoS'd a dead townie. That was a setup entirely so you could look town.

2. Suppose Moogle and yourself are scum. How is this situation any less logical than situation 1, a mafiate calling out their own when neither of them were suspected until I pointed it out?

So, what, you're negating your first point because you're saying it's valid to associate people as scum? Pick a side. You're saying you can't be scum because you accused Secretskull earlier, and now you're saying Moogle and I are both scum because I accused him?

Why so obsessed that because Secret targeted Moogs and I can see where he's coming from now, that we're both scum?

Because the entire game you've been trying to run distraction with scum, plus you voted for Zilla 1 just because she was voting Fenris with a vendetta, plus your posts have been inconsistent and manipulative and contradictory.

Hell, at this point I'd vote for both of you if I could do that.

Of course you would, OMGUS has been your forte all game long (See day 1, day 2...)

But, going by your statements, because you're talking and he isn't, you're the mafiate.

That makes no sense, since when has talkativeness indicated scum?

Hey Moogle hasn't attempted to speak up much, I'm not calling him scum except here hypothetically, while Zilla's obviously scum because she's defending Moogle.

What? I'm scum for defending someone who you're not calling scum??? What the FUCK.

Really, your whole scum buddies theory is hinging on the fact that I am now defending this man,

"WHAT IS A MAN? A MISERABLE LITTLE PILE OF SECRETSKULL!"

the one I personally called out the logic on, is scum and since I can see where he's coming from, I'm therefore scum. Tell me if I missed something there, but it sounds like bad logic to me.

You missed the part where you were insincere, flaky, and defending someone who has issued statements that couldn't have been made by town. You also missed the point of the broken PO argument, but we're getting to that.

3. Your simple explanation "Rokrin was Masoned to a Broken PO who thought Fenris was clean" story is also lacking. Fenris was alive for 7 hours after your previous death, and the only person who cared so much as to defend him was Rokrin, no broken cop, nothing.

First, it's a hypothetical to illustrate the point that there are other logical solutions aside from Fenris being a mason traitor. Second, 7 hours is not a long time. Third, if a dead, clean, sane PO is pointing at someone, it's more logical to believe the clean PO than to trust your own read. Fourth, any good PO wouldn't claim just to stop one town lynch, especially on day 2. Fifth, Fenris actually fessed up to being scum far prior to his death.

[/quote]And quite Frankly, would you trust the voice of a cop who states Fenris was clean, or the word of a dead cop who gave no implication for anything other than constantly voting him, giving no actual cause?[/quote]

The dead cop with a vendetta, every time. I would expect as much of anyone who knows how to play mafia. A live cop counterclaiming would give cause for pause, but not enough to overturn the trail left by a dead cop with a vendetta.

This point is less important than the first two, since 7 hours is still a short time for a lynching, but I feel it still raises questions.

Newbie questions.

Why aren't you suspicious of the people not posting much at all? Scum enjoy a good shadow to hide in.

Because then I'd have to suspect the entire game aside from the four of us who are posting.

---------------------------------

Yes, I can see that. The question is why? Clearing moogle doesn't make me more suspect. You can show reasons why you think moogle is innocent, but even if he were confirmed at this very second, it would prove nothing about me. You yourself admitted that my reasons were sound, at the very least they were sounder then whatever accusations were floating around at the time.

Would you care to clue me in? Why are you defending him? Is it just simple goodwill?

Reading over it, Moogle also fell for Zilla I's trap and your reasons ARE sound, which means if you flip town, I'll be on his case for sure. It's not a matter of implicating you so much as your issues don't clear you. To make this abundantly clear, I reread the topic since my last post, and I suspect Moogle again, and the points you bring up are good ones.

I'm now far more willing to put you on reserve in favor of Demonlink.

Unvote: Secretskull
Vote: Demonlink2

SS has one very VERY controversial slip on him, but demonlink's got more than that stocked on him now.