Pokemon Umbral Discussion 14: Discussion Thread Player Character Conspiracy #1

[Menarker]

One pokemon in a 6 pokemon team doesn't change the fact that your team is 83% legendary. Not that it's a problem, but just trying to emphasize that I'm not really TRYING to go all out with exploits, but take what I think is best within the specific roleplaying mindset I got going (With one made up pokemon as a bonus and to keep competitive with Enmakki)

And it seems you approve about the entire color thing.

[Dracorion]

No, I'm saying I'm going to abuse the hell out of it. AB will never be able to look at orange again.

Enmakki is absolutely the worst guy you could ever compete with. He won't just beat you in a horrible and humiliating manner and never let you live it down, he'll crush you completely and utterly and then make you relive it forever.

[Menarker]

Aww, come on. I was serious. It's a good idea to make it easier as a GM and faster for us to get the answers to all the questions we ask AB but end up get overlooked because he is tired or overlook it.

Anyhow, given that most of my last attempt at the post was not based on the Psych Up thing, I'll start writing on it. Impact's group isn't getting Maria, but I'll think about sending Dormond.

See? It's entirely possible that any enemy we ever come across will have a means to keep us from buffing ourselves to hell!

Totally!

And somehow, I don't know whether you were sincere whether you backed up my point regarding Haze and other counter-measures or if you were being sarcastic. I assumed you were sincere since previously you were making the point that Psych Up was being used in their more unused but legit ways.

AB: If I send someone from one team to another, is there a delay period between how long it takes them to get from one to the other? Would Teleport change anything about that? And lastly, would they keep any buffs they had in either case? (I doubt it)

[Dracorion]

Originally Posted by Menarker

Aww, come on. I was serious. It's a good idea to make it easier as a GM and faster for us to get the answers to all the questions we ask AB but end up get overlooked because he is tired or overlook it.

I'll try, but I make no promises.

Originally Posted by Menarker

And somehow, I don't know whether you were sincere whether you backed up my point regarding Haze and other counter-measures or if you were being sarcastic. I assumed you were sincere since previously you were making the point that Psych Up was being used in their more unused but legit ways.

That one in particular was more sarcasm than sincerity, but there were both in there.

I should point out, AB mentioned that the enemy Pokebrids couldn't take part in the battle. Though that just may be because they have two pokemon out each. I dunno if the Arbok Pokebrid would or could recall one pokemon and then use Haze.

Originally Posted by Menarker

Also, while the tactic in the "RP world" makes perfect sense to implement, that doesn't mean it makes sense to use without preperations. If I tried to just use it without defence or without Battle Tide or such...
Let's say that Renny's team was the antagonist and it's the turn after Togekiss was knocked out and I was the Arbok pokebrid leader. Suddenly you see that two pokemons have buffed up to huge proportions. In a roleplaying sense, unless there was some other unlying factor, he would order his minions to attack Snorlax and Dormond directly and harshly. Similarly if we as a group ever came across a ruin pokemon. If it ever used an equivulent of Belly Drum, I'm pretty damn certain the group would suggest gang-beating it to a bloody pulp. Buff moves tend to paint a big bullseyes on the ones using it, and given the size of the army we're facing down... yeah.

Maybe for this battle, sure. But Geminex already said that if you set your allies up right you can buff your team to hell while making it impossible or incredibly hard for the enemies to kill you (either by killing them, incapacitating them, or making your pokemon immune to damage, whichever). I haven't come up with how, but I've no doubt it's entirely possible.

Unless the enemies too are set up to counter your strategy.

Say, I wonder what would happen if two Pokemon used Follow Me on each other.

By the way, seriously, you can't put poor, slow, retarded little Mollesk to compete with Enmakki. "Slaughter" doesn't even begin to cover it. The only way Mollesk might survive is that Enmakki might get bored waiting for it to react.

[Menarker]

Well, keep in mind that in the pokemon games, a normal level 100 shuckles can withstand a STAB Earthquake from the level 100 legendary Groudon with only 1/3 of his health lost. (Look up a youtube video) Compared to other pokemons of the same level, Shuckle has only a base stat of 20 HP . Now apply that to Mollesk who has the same DEF and SDEF as Shuckle to start with, but has almost 100 extra base stat points in hit points. Now consider that Mollesk can practically double both his defences with Cosmic Power. Mollesk is a literal tank. Mind you, with sleep status and sleep attacking moves, Enmakki can still win (and honestly, it's more likely he would win), but it won't be an easy fight by any margin (and it'll be long too).

I imagine dual Follow Me would fail to operate.

What I was saying with that bit that you quoted is that enemies will notice and start taking action once they see what is going on. I won't have the luxury of getting those buffs unmolested. They'll attacking and maintaining pressure and all that. Yes, once I manage to get to that point, it's a steep uphill battle for them, but it's the same for me since any smart trainer will try to foil the plan before it can be put into action (or let me finish setting up while they attack something else, and then use Haze when I try to attack so my multiple turns spent buffing are wasted.)

Which is entirely possible given how a trainer can just switch a pokemon in AND use a move at the same turn. I could be fighting 10 Hitmonlees and trying to pump up my team for 3 or four turns. However, on the turn before I would attack, the trainer sends out Arbok or some other pokemon (Many poison types has Haze) and uses Haze. Before I can react or even attack, it's all gone and I've been battered hard for no reward. Getting too greedy with buffs can be an issue!

AB: Can pokemon trainers aside from Renny, Charlotte and Pierce use the same upgrades they can? Like can Dominic use Divide or can Moon use Focus and that sort of thing? Are the foes capable of doing the same?

[Bard The 5th LW]

The dcy scrapers of text burn my eyes. I'm going to keep playing the RP my own way: Challenge by choice. Not thinking too hard about it. No overpower exploitation from me.

I wish there was a smiley capable off conveying a sudden burst of malevolent glee, combined with incredible gratitude that out of all the worlds I could have been born in, I got the one that's collectively really, really gullible.

Use it wisely my friend. With great smileys come great responsibility.

[Geminex]

Ok, I'll make this quick:

First, in regards to Menarker's objection to my strategy: I decided to boost attack as well as special attack, since the pokemon that'll later psych themselves up wouldn't necessarily all be physical attackers. They won't need both, but, since I don't know which one they'll need, I've given them both. One good way to refine the strategy would be to re-arrange the teams, so that all the psych-uppers are physical attackers, eliminating the need for togekiss or umbreon. Togekiss has better defense, though, so I'd use it regardless.

Secondly, in regards to haze:
Ok, I overlooked that move. Still, it only hits two enemies. That's good, but not great, considering that not all that many pokemon can learn it (compared to psych-up, anyway). And besides, if AB's going to set up teams to counter that sort of strategy, then why not just disallow it!? Or limit it? The only conceivable reason to use psych-up on your allies is to do what I've described, to get the stats buffs (which are most certainly present) from one pokemon and spread them to your entire team, in lieu of buffing them yourselves!
Look at it this way: If this move didn't exist yet, but AB invented it as a trainer upgrade, saying "Ok, you can give your pokemon the ability to copy any stats changes on the battlefield. This counts as an attack, so you'll need to sacrifice a moveslot and a turn.", would anyone here doubt my inevitable protest would be justified?

Thirdly, in regards to Drac:
I don't know what the people at Nintendo are thinking. But the benefits of psych-up in a 1v1 or a 2v2 are dwarfed by its potential in a 6v6 or a 10v10. That's because you need only one pokemon to buff itself up. Then the rest of your team just needs to sacrifice a turn to buff itself to the same level. Even if we remove baton pass' ability to pass stuff on to teammates, Menarker could still take his mollesk, boost its defense and special defense ridiculously, and then have the rest of the team copy that! I very much doubt that that was the creator's intention.

So, yeah, I think that whoever was responsible for balancing in the pokemon games would be turning over in their graves right about now. (Because they kill everyone who's worked on a pokemon game the day it gets released, right?)

Why do I even have to discuss this? Are any of my points incoherent? Are there any fallacies that I didn't notice? It can be abused, it will be abused, I don't want abuse to occur. Where is your justification? Where are your arguments outside "but it can be countered". Of course it can be countered, but the way to make it unnecessary to counter your abuse is to prevent abuse.

Sigh.

[Bard The 5th LW]

Sigh.

It pisses me off when people sigh through text. Are there other ways to demonstrate exasperation?

[Dracorion]

Originally Posted by Menarker

Mind you, with sleep status and sleep attacking moves, Enmakki can still win (and honestly, it's more likely he would win), but it won't be an easy fight by any margin (and it'll be long too).

Four words: Dark Abyss, Bad Dreams. Enmakki's Dark Abyss, which AB approved, has 100% chance to inflict sleep and it also inflicts Nightmare. Y'know, Nightmare the move (yeah, I still have my doubts about it). If I'm reading correctly, Nightmare takes away 1/4 of the target's maximum HP every turn. Then there's Bad Dreams, which takes away 1/8. Mollesk would be losing 3/8 of it's maximum health every turn.

Originally Posted by Menarker

AB: Can pokemon trainers aside from Renny, Charlotte and Pierce use the same upgrades they can? Like can Dominic use Divide or can Moon use Focus and that sort of thing? Are the foes capable of doing the same?

You already know that NPC trainers can't use Trainer Attack. Or at least, NPC Battle Masters can't.

So can we get a list of what upgrades the NPCs can or can't use?

Originally Posted by Geminex

Thirdly, in regards to Drac:
I don't know what the people at Nintendo are thinking. But the benefits of psych-up in a 1v1 or a 2v2 are dwarfed by its potential in a 6v6 or a 10v10.

Well you're the one who brought up 2v2 battles earlier. I was just responding to that, not 6v6 battles.

Originally Posted by Geminex

That's because you need only one pokemon to buff itself up. Then the rest of your team just needs to sacrifice a turn to buff itself to the same level. Even if we remove baton pass' ability to pass stuff on to teammates, Menarker could still take his mollesk, boost its defense and special defense ridiculously, and then have the rest of the team copy that! I very much doubt that that was the creator's intention.

Yeah, I think we should implement both of my suggestions here. Baton Pass only works on one's own pokemon, and Pokemon switched with Baton Pass stay switched for the duration of the turn (I'm not sure if we should make Roar work on Baton Switched pokemon, because it's usable on allies). The time investment required to buff your team to 4x attack, special attack, special defense, defence and speed would be ridiculous. You'd die before you could finish.

Originally Posted by Geminex

It can be abused, it will be abused, I don't want abuse to occur.

Well, gee, I guess I just don't share your cynical view.

Originally Posted by Geminex

Sigh.

Sigh.

[Geminex]

How is it cynical? Menarker's using it already, and if AB, true to his word, continues to let him do that, there's literally nothing preventing him from increasing its usage. If he made some sort of guarantee that he'd limit his abuse, I might even be happy with that, but so far all he's done is point out the amount of counters that're available.

But honestly, give me an hour with bulbapedia and I'll eliminate those counters. Hell, I've already thought of a few things in the time I was typing this and some of them don't even need psych-up that much. It's all a matter of stats and movesets, and this system is broken. What I'm saying is that it needs to be balanced a little better, and that that should begin with making it impossible to hugely buff your entire team with little effort.

And if the sigh annoys you, I could totally try hissing. Or writing with a fake accent.