D&D Shenanigans

[tacticslion]

Originally Posted by Smarty McBarrelpants

If you're epic level 20th level characters can't do shit. My character who was level 35 and had one level of every character class and one level of a lot of prestige classes and had old age penalties (ie. the worst built character ever) managed to take down a tarrasque in 1 round on 3 seperate occasions. He murdered 4 old white dragons in 1 round.
20th level characters are like little flies.

On Leadership's PowerYeah, in theory... until you realize that ten magewrights working in concert can mass-gate epic/advanced solars, pit fiends, efreet, and others to do your bidding and grant you nearly-infinite wishes, create nearly infinite wealth, and similar such things. Especially if you (with your epic authority) artificially boost their caster level. You will literally have the ability to have most of heaven and hell under your command with the appropriate conjurer-enabled choices. I mean, heck, even if the GM rules that a thrallherd only gets NPC classes, the leadership feat specifies that you can take penalties and get PC classes. Do that, build them up, get your stuff on, and win DnD. Epic characters are amazing, but they can only do so much by themselves (without epic magic, see below). All that said, with leadership you'd still have your epic-level cohort.

Epics can do most things, especially with epic spellcaster feat, unless the GM says "no".As to your "epics can do anything": to a point. Especially because at epic levels (unless house rules are in play, as in my games) things end very, very quickly. Save-or-die (with an emphasis on die) happens at epics all the time.

Murder a tarrasque? Okay. Even thrice is doable (although it's not exactly murdering a tarrasque unless you gated him out of the world and wished him dead forever, and even then...). Old Age penalties aren't all that bad, especially for casters as they get the old-age bonuses to go with them. Prestige classes (depending on your choices) could up your magical power, even if you only took one level of them - and you'd have to have specialized in some skills just to gain access to the prestige classes. Once you've upped your magic, you could simply take "epic spellcaster" and *bam*, you've won DnD. Taking one level in every class grants you something extraordinary: saves, and incredible ones. By the time you're epic, you've got better-than-perfect saves and you've got a ton of exploitable stuff from 24 prestige classes. Uber-multiclass isn't great, but it's not as bad as people think.

I do admit I'm making presumptions:
~ 1 you took one of the elven core classes, leaving you 24 prestige class levels
~ 2 about half of those are were magic-based granting you a +12 to caster level(s), granting you access to game-breaking 6th level spells (meaning you don't really have to worry about number three, but it's there anyway)
~ 3 you took epic magic, the most overwhelmingly, mind-blowingly annoying theoretically uber-powered things while simultaneously being an utterly annoying and under-powered thing ever, bent entirely upon the DM's whim

Finally, taking out 4 old white dragons in a round is only possible under unusual circumstances including 1) powerful weaponry and 4 attacks in a round [not possible with RAW multi-class, as you indicated above], 2) fortuitious (for you) spell-rolls/choices with them in a poorly clumped group and/or quicken spell (automatic metamagic [quicken spell] would be useful, but unecessary)and the epic feat that allows you to use more than one quickened spell in a round.

Originally Posted by Melfice

... this seems a somewhat anti-climatic ending.
I mean, don't get me wrong, the whole bit is amazing, but the way you bring it. I expected at least 2 big books, or something.
Still, nice work.

I really don't know what else he could have said, other than detailing what his friends' desires were. I still say he should have remade the world out of himself, like I recommended*, but I suppose this works too!

*That's in this post for all you tactics lion fans!

[krogothwolf]

Okay this was unbelievably bizarre!

Our Session on Saturday was a trap house. Traps almost everywhere and you could really only go in one straight path.

My character is a Dwarf Cleric wearing FULL FUCKING PLATE MAIL! So, I was worried about having to do Reflex saves. Everything was going decently well, we hadn't been hit to hard lately so we're trudging along.

First section we get through fairly easy, then the thief forgets to tell us the section is trapped, I walk through and manage to avoid setting off both traps with high reflex rolls.

We get to 40 foot long hallway, 5 foot corner, one 5 foot square, 10 foot trap with buzzsaws, 5 foots square, 10 foot trap with crashing down ceiling with spikes 5 foot corner.

Anyways, the thief's checked the 10 foot buzz saw trap and then motioned two of us forward. I went first, clunking along in this massive armour, then a Half Orc trudged behind me. And instead of checking the next step, the thief signaled the second dwarf to join us, I got pushed forward into the instant death trap of doom. That was it, high reflex save needed a 20 to pass. I rolled....20! The damn dwarf in full plate does cartwheels down the hallway to avoid the trap. Booyaa! Healed that bastard.

Then! The Dwarf and Half Orc BOTH run through the trap before it can reset to join me. AND PUSH ME FORWARD AGAIN! Zap, only a lightning trap, high reflex roll for half damage, booyaa.

Had to head forward to heal one of the thieves for setting of a trap, then they encounter a wall with words on it, they read the words, BOOM. I reflex high to take half. Then, they go forward and set off a Lightning trap because they rolled crappy, I reflex for half!

(At this point my rolls are 18,19,20,19,19,18. Insane!)

We get to a swinging trap thing thats 10 foot across. The theives tumble across and can't figure out a way to disable it so they sit there for a bit thinking, then one explores further and the other just stands there, So I book it across. Reflex save! 19! BOOYA! It only clips me for minor damage. My dwarf is a nimble little shit today!

Now we have to go down a ladder through a trap door. The other dwarf and the Half orc go down and get attacked. And decide to hug the ladder instead of moving forward. I say screw this! I climb down the ladder, then JUMP over both! Dex check! 19! BOOYAA! The Full Plate Dwarf jumps and lands no problem.

Joy is had by all! Then I started attacking, could hit but was rolling 1's and 3's on my d8 damage roll.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Originally Posted by tacticslion

Yeah, in theory... until you realize that ten magewrights working in concert can mass-gate epic/advanced solars, pit fiends, efreet, and others to do your bidding and grant you nearly-infinite wishes, create nearly infinite wealth, and similar such things. Especially if you (with your epic authority) artificially boost their caster level. You will literally have the ability to have most of heaven and hell under your command with the appropriate conjurer-enabled choices. I mean, heck, even if the GM rules that a thrallherd only gets NPC classes, the leadership feat specifies that you can take penalties and get PC classes. Do that, build them up, get your stuff on, and win DnD. Epic characters are amazing, but they can only do so much by themselves (without epic magic, see below). All that said, with leadership you'd still have your epic-level cohort.

All this is still pretty pathetic compared to the average epic. OH NO NOT A SOLAR>>!>!>!>!> WHATEVER SHALL I DO!!!>!>!!>!>

Murder a tarrasque? Okay. Even thrice is doable (although it's not exactly murdering a tarrasque unless you gated him out of the world and wished him dead forever, and even then...).

In one round!

Old Age penalties aren't all that bad, especially for casters as they get the old-age bonuses to go with them.

His caster level was level 1 in all classes. It not much help having a high int when you are shooting gods with 1D4+1 damage.

Prestige classes (depending on your choices) could up your magical power, even if you only took one level of them - and you'd have to have specialized in some skills just to gain access to the prestige classes. Once you've upped your magic, you could simply take "epic spellcaster" and *bam*, you've won DnD. Taking one level in every class grants you something extraordinary: saves, and incredible ones. By the time you're epic, you've got better-than-perfect saves and you've got a ton of exploitable stuff from 24 prestige classes. Uber-multiclass isn't great, but it's not as bad as people think.

Only if you're some kind of ridiculous twink. The entire point of this character is that the epic level rules are stupid and even characters who are built in completely stupid ways can murder half the cosmos.

I do admit I'm making presumptions:
~ 1 you took one of the elven core classes, leaving you 24 prestige class levels

Nope, all human. Elves look dumb.

~ 2 about half of those are were magic-based granting you a +12 to caster level(s), granting you access to game-breaking 6th level spells (meaning you don't really have to worry about number three, but it's there anyway)
~ 3 you took epic magic, the most overwhelmingly, mind-blowingly annoying theoretically uber-powered things while simultaneously being an utterly annoying and under-powered thing ever, bent entirely upon the DM's whim

I think I had like two magic prestige classes and they were purposefully stupid ones.

Finally, taking out 4 old white dragons in a round is only possible under unusual circumstances including 1) powerful weaponry and 4 attacks in a round [not possible with RAW multi-class, as you indicated above], 2) fortuitious (for you) spell-rolls/choices with them in a poorly clumped group and/or quicken spell (automatic metamagic [quicken spell] would be useful, but unecessary)and the epic feat that allows you to use more than one quickened spell in a round.

Whirlwind attack is awesome when combined with the stupid epic level fight feats.
You are missing the point- I actively set out to make a stupidly underpowered epic level character, I didn't use magic and he would still murder an army of 20th level wizards.

At one point I started dual-wielding cabers and I still managed to take out a whole fuck load of pitfiends.

[EVILNess]

Originally Posted by Melfice

... this seems a somewhat anti-climatic ending.
I mean, don't get me wrong, the whole bit is amazing, but the way you bring it. I expected at least 2 big books, or something.
Still, nice work.

I'm sorry?

I mean I didn't want to throw out a wall of text so late at night. Also I thought my ending was elegant in its simplicity.

[Melfice]

Originally Posted by EVILNess

I'm sorry?

I mean I didn't want to throw out a wall of text so late at night. Also I thought my ending was elegant in its simplicity.

Oh, I suppose so.
I mean, compared to your other walls, this was a bit of a step down. Though I can understand the "late at night" thing, and stuff.
Never mind me!

[Rejected Again]

Yeah, I was running a magic heavy party. (Wizard(Evoker) Druid, Cleric(Boccob), Rogue, and Fighter.) I traded the Immunity out for a shit ton of DR and SR figuring that would balance it out.

[tacticslion]

Smarty!

Originally Posted by Smarty McBarrelpants

All this is still pretty pathetic compared to the average epic. OH NO NOT A SOLAR>>!>!>!>!> WHATEVER SHALL I DO!!!>!>!!>!>

Not "a" Solar: several! They are far more powerful than pit fiends.

Originally Posted by Smarty McBarrelpants

In one round!

Plus...

Originally Posted by Smarty McBarrelpants

Whirlwind attack is awesome when combined with the stupid epic level fight feats.

Okay, so you're playing 3.0, and using the massively broken whirlwind-cleave feat? 'Cause that stuff can be done at non-epic levels.

Originally Posted by Smarty McBarrelpants

Only if you're some kind of ridiculous twink.

Why yes I am, thank you!

Originally Posted by Smarty McBarrelpants

You are missing the point- I actively set out to make a stupidly underpowered epic level character, I didn't use magic and he would still murder an army of 20th level wizards.

Originally Posted by Smarty McBarrelpants

The entire point of this character is that the epic level rules are stupid and even characters who are built in completely stupid ways can murder half the cosmos.

No, I totally get your point. The problem is that it doesn't make any sense at all, really. I've run epic campaigns. They can't murder everyone in the cosmos without twinks. Which, again, if you're using epic fight feats combined with whirlwind to perform murder-tarrasque in one round (which you mentioned the four white dragons in one round, not the tarrasque) is what you're doing. If twinks are simply abusing the RAW rules, that's what you did because it's not supposed to work that way (I recognize, however, that "it's not supposed to, but does" is your contention).

Originally Posted by Smarty McBarrelpants

Nope, all human. Elves look dumb.

Wait, what? Oh, I see what you did, there! ("hint: it's a mispelled eleven")

Please, post repsonsibly. Don't drink and post. Have a designated poster.[/PSA]

Originally Posted by Smarty McBarrelpants

At one point I started dual-wielding cabers and I still managed to take out a whole fuck load of pitfiends.

lolwut. Cabers? Especially if you were experiencing age penalties you shouldn't have been able to do that with even darkwood cabers, because of the weight. Also, unless they were "good aligned" cabers, you couldn't have "taken them out" (at least not permenantly), as they'd simply get better. It's like hitting a troll with anything that's not fire, acid, or desintigration. Besides, if they were all having sex on a piece of heavy machinery and/or on the back of a delivery truck*, they were probably more vulnerable than normal.

Also, for fun (and argumentation sake), let's break down your character, shall we?
Classes!Barbarian, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Sorcerer, and Wizard, and twenty four different prestige classes. Let's presume, for the sake of arguement, that you gain bonus feats from some of the the epic level prestige classes and you carefully take other classes to maximize your epic feats.

How many feats would you have? Short answer: six epic feats to play with.Level 35 grants a normal human thirteen feats, plus bonus feats. Monk, ranger, and wizard give you specific non-epic bonus feats: improved unarmed strike, stunning fist (and/or improved grapple in 3.5), track, and scribe scroll. Of the twelve, the non-epic feats you'd gain eight - six from every third level, one for first level, and one for being human. That'd leave five more epic feats, six if you saved your fighter level for epic. You may or may not have bonus feats from prestige classes.

The reason I'm ignoring epic prestige classes.For epic prestiges you can only meet the requirements for the argent retriever, divine emissary (costs an epic feat), epic infiltrator (costs an epic feat), legendary dreadnaught, perfect wight (costs an epic feat), and union sentinal (the others rely on spell levels/specific spells or class features you can't access with only one level in each class, I'm ignoring skills for now). Your twink is one of over-combatness-greatness (even with the age/strength penalties). None of the epic classes give you feats, and, although they do grant you benefits, I'm not going to count their prereqs against your number of feats, unless you counter me.

Now let's look at the epic combat feats that make you more effective in physical combat, (ignoring save-improving feats for now) that are remotely viable for any character who's alignment is all over the map, but is human. I've put potential problems, based off of what you've told me of your character's history/state, in parentheses: Here's a list of combat-related epic general feats.armor skin, bane of enemies (five or more favored enemies), death of enemies (bane of enemies), blinding speed (DEX 25), combat archery, damage reduction (CON 21), distant shot (DEX 25), epic endurance (CON 25), epic prowess, epic speed (DEX 21), epic toughness, epic weapon focus, epic weapon specialization, exceptional deflection (DEX 21, deflect arrows), fast healing (CON 25), improved combat reflexes (DEX 21), improved whirlwind attack (DEX 23), infinite deflection (DEX 25), infinite deflection (DEX 25), instant reload, legendary wrestler (STR and DEX 21), overwhelming critical (STR 23), devastating critical (STR 25), penetrate damage reduction, perfect two weapon fighting (DEX 25), reflect arrows (DEX 25), self concealment (improved evasion), storm of throws (DEX 23), superior initiative, swarm of arrows (DEX 23), two weapon rend, uncanny accuracy (DEX 21).

Here's a similarly notated list of class-related feats.Class-related things: bonus domain (9th level divine spells), chaotic rage (rage 5/day, chaotic alignment), great smiting, holy strike (any good alignment), improved death attack (sneak attack +5d6), improved elemental wild shape (ability to wild shape into elemental), improved favored enemy (five or more favored enemies), improved sneak attack (sneak attack +8d6), improved stunning fist (DEX and WIS 19), keen strike (STR 23, ki strike +3), vorpal strike (STR 25, ki strike +3), greater rage (STR and CON 21, greater rage), ruinous rage (STR 25, rage 5/day), shattering strike (ki strike +3), sneak attack of opportunity (+8d6 sneak attack), terrifying rage (rage 5/day), thundering rage (STR 25, rage 5/day).

Since I don't have your character sheet, here's what I can see you having based off of your general claims.So, for the sake of our limited knowledge, let's elminate all potential "problem" feats and see where that leaves you: armor skin, combat archery, epic prowess, epic toughness, epic weapon focus, epic weapon specialization, instant reload, penetrate damage reduction, superior initiative, two weapon rend, and (for class-related) great smiting.

This is what those listed above allow you to do.These allow you to have a higher AC (ignored by touch attacks), fire a bow at close range without penalty, have +1 to hit with your attacks (per epic prowess feat), have an extra 20 hit points (per epic toughness feat), have a +2 on a specific weapon's attacks, and +4 on damage, reload/fire your specefied kind crossbow more than once per round (maximum four), ignore damage reduction (and only DR) as if your weapon was +2 (per pen. DR feat) higher, get a +8 to initiatives, do an extra one weapon plus 1.5 STR bonus per round, add two damage to a given smite attack you perform instead of just one.

Conclusion: you could either do that stuff at pre-epic levels, if you're using the broken 3.0 rules.The only real possibilities here are weapon specialization (the +4) and two-weapon rend (which isn't actually an epic feat), and those heavily rely upon a great strength modifiers to add to their damage. Nothing there stacks with the whirlwind feat to make it more broken that it already was in 3.0, and to kill a tarrasque in one round with the 3.0 whirlwind feat could be done at pre-epic levels anyway. I totally admit, however, that you're easily able to get all the feats I could viably see working in your example within the six (or even five) limit I postulated above.

Some admitted problems with my argumentation.Admitted problems with my argumentation include the fact that I don't know what precise classes you took on your way to 35th level. I also don't know what current class abilities you had available or what your final ability scores were, so I can't say for sure which feats you had. If you have high enough strength, dexterity, and constitution scores with full age penalties (that's -6 to each of them) to take those feats, however, I'd not be to worried about those age penalties. As in at all.

At long last, the closing arguement.Outside of that, the only way I know of for this stuff to work is a) abuse of supplement rules, and/or b) GM ruling (which isn't RAW). In general, however, your assertion that any epic can murder anything (at least in juxtaposition to non-epics) doesn't seem true, but rather using twinkery from plethoras of prestige classes, unusual non-epic feat combinations, and specific abilities. Anything beyond that is overly-specific and reliant upon certain situations to viably make that claim in all situations. Epic rules are broken, but just not in the way you indicated, and not at the level you indicated. Sixth level spells are far more broken than epic level stuff.

All that said, I think it's an amusing story - it's cool that you were able to do that!

Originally Posted by Rejected Again

Yeah, I was running a magic heavy party. (Wizard(Evoker) Druid, Cleric(Boccob), Rogue, and Fighter.) I traded the Immunity out for a shit ton of DR and SR figuring that would balance it out.

Actually, your design decision makes good sense, then. It's just funny how those little things aren't easy to foresee! I did something similar once, in an epic campaign where I allowed a leader to train his people (choose a feat or two/classes for them - they were all svirfneblins). The guy took an obscure racial feat, and got all of his followers to do so as well - the ability to summon a small earth elemental controlled by the summoner, and, if several worked together, they'd summon one that was one size category larger. It was all well and good, until he had his sixth followers taking leadership and the summon earth elemental feat. Then he used his casters to temporarily increase their HD (and thus grant temporary feats). Then he led them all in summoning one earth elemental. At the same time. With literally hundreds upon hundreds of participants (thanks to the chaining leadership). I gaped when I realized what he did. Then, I threw my hands up, allowed it, and they summoned and controlled the Plains of Purple Dust (and used it only to transport themselves across Faerun and into the astral plane, where they eventually lost it, when they collectively used the whole thing as a specialized spell component to make a new god that they couldn't control). Fun times, though.

*I pun, I pun.

[Terex4]

So we're getting ready to start a new second edition campaign and I'm trying to make a really unique character. We're starting off at 10th level and I'm playing a bard with the jongleur kit. I was going to go with picking up the pebbles to boulders spell until I realized it wasn't an original concept (my DM had done and it and told me about it a long time ago) so now I'm trying to think of other things this character can do to really stand out.

I'm required to take proficiency in gambling as part of the game's theme and I'm curious if I can take that in a combat oriented direction somehow.

I'm thinking about doing everything I can to start with a ring of fire resistance and use torch juggling and fire breathing as combat abilities. Juggling balls coated in Oil of Impact sound fun too.

[tacticslion]

Originally Posted by Terex4

So we're getting ready to start a new second edition campaign and I'm trying to make a really unique character.

Sorry, but I'm pretty sure that's a hopeless case. I'm almost certain everything's been done before (twice) by now. Heck, Pun-Pun exists in three races at this point.

That said...

Originally Posted by Terex4

We're starting off at 10th level and I'm playing a bard with the jongleur kit. I was going to go with picking up the pebbles to boulders spell until I realized it wasn't an original concept (my DM had done and it and told me about it a long time ago) so now I'm trying to think of other things this character can do to really stand out.

I'm required to take proficiency in gambling as part of the game's theme and I'm curious if I can take that in a combat oriented direction somehow.

I'm thinking about doing everything I can to start with a ring of fire resistance and use torch juggling and fire breathing as combat abilities. Juggling balls coated in Oil of Impact sound fun too.

Sounds cool. Now I just wish I knew anything about AD&D (other than the video game versions of it tend to be boring with a few potential exceptions) so I could help you!

On the topic of my own games... so I've got a player*cough*LadyFireDove*cough* who "collects" people in our games, right? Well recently they were under assault from a whole ton of Yuan (like Yuan-Ti, but with more elf!), which she defeated. Another character (because the player in question wanted to "collect" a new friend!) managed to down one of them to unconscious, beat the Yuan into submission, and, after the Yuan was recaptured (it quickly turned into a serpent to escape it's bonds when it woke), placed a series of studs in the body (most notably the tongue and mouth), attached to ribbons, strings, and rope, basically making it hurt like all get-out if it transforms, and leaving plenty of 'bridles' to make sure it's easily recaptured.

My afore-mentioned people-collector has subsequently swayed (by generous use of diplomacy, charisma, and other such checks) the Yuan to be an ally. Eventually she considered removing the various studs. The Yuan, however, has turned out to think it's a nifty new "fashion statement" and refuses to have her tongue-stud removed. 'Hhoah, 'owe 'h'ee 'awks 'ike 'ihch 'awe 'ah 'eyem (translation: "so now she talks like this all the time"). No one can understand a thing the Yuan says unless they're reading her mind. Good times.

[Ecks]

So how many people still play 3E? I've got a friend who's preparing a campaign (with its own mythology, based on selections from the Draconomicon) and we're preparing to get it underway pretty soon. I rolled a pretty decent Elf Duskblade (I have a hard time picking between meatshields and squishy wizards, so I opted for something a little more like FFXIII's Ravager), and the DM is pushing the storytelling aspect (he's a big fan of Final Fantasy-style stories) which is something I'm stoked for. Only problem is we had two people quit the group, and we only have three left, counting the DM (who is playing a majority of the other party members, some of whom aren't PCs). We're still gonna play, but there's no guarantee we'll keep interest long enough to finish.

I'm a little reluctant to touch 4E, so we're gonna stick with 3E.