Don't Ask; Don't Tell Repeal Blocked

[POS Industries]

Originally Posted by NonCon

As such, I am going to use phrases like straightsplaining and hetsplaining because that is an accurate description of what you people are doing and it's frustrating as hell.

Not here you aren't, because you will not hurl personal insults at people who don't agree with you on this forum.

[Kim]

Originally Posted by POS Industries

Not here you aren't, because you will not hurl personal insults at people who don't agree with you on this forum.

Originally Posted by bluestarultor

Non, I say this as respectfully as possible, but go fuck yourself.

Right.

[POS Industries]

Yes, that extends to everyone and you all need to knock it the fuck off.

But also don't act like him telling you to go fuck yourself preceded your unnecessarily antagonistic behavior. If you--any of you--gets the itch to make some good old fashioned rageposting, I would appreciate it if you, instead, decided to maybe take a breather and come back and make your case with regular notrageposting.

[Mesden]

Hey Noncon stop being a complete asshole. You are actually right but you are the biggest, jerkiest kind of right there is.

This entire thread has been you shitting all over people because you're gay and special and we get it, you're gay and special, but be more civil. It almost sickens me that I agree with you because you somehow stand next to fifthfiend and make him seem like the friendliest conversationalist I've ever seen. As a matter of fact my disgust at your recent posts has only been tempered by Fifth taking up your side of the argument the way someone on your side of the argument should do it.

And no, just because someone else said something mean doesn't mean you can say something mean. You picked out one line of Blues but it was after you fucking vomited your angst all over him. I almost never see eye to eye with Blues but you deserved to be told to fuck off.

Sorry if this upsets the mods but jesus christ, NonCon used to be a minififthfiend and now he's progressively turned into more and more of a vitrolic narcissist to the point where you can't even sift through his actual good points behind the thick, blubbered layer of venom.

[Viridis]

One thing that has me confused: Everyone seems to be saying that the ruling removing DADT would leave the UCMJ and some other discrimination in place. Where I get confused is: I thought we had worked out, in a previous discussion, that the ruling that removes DADT is worded in such a way that it outlaws any discrimination based on sexuality, superseding this other stuff? Is that not the case? Am I misremembering?

[POS Industries]

Originally Posted by Viridis

One thing that has me confused: Everyone seems to be saying that the ruling removing DADT would leave the UCMJ and some other discrimination in place. Where I get confused is: I thought we had worked out, in a previous discussion, that the ruling that removes DADT is worded in such a way that it outlaws any discrimination based on sexuality, superseding this other stuff? Is that not the case? Am I misremembering?

Basically the issue is that haters gonna hate, and there are many that are concerned that there are potential legal loopholes that said haters can take advantage of to continue hating unless it's explicitly--and without any other interpretation--stated that those loopholes are gone, too.

[Kim]

Originally Posted by Mesden

Hey Noncon stop being a complete asshole. You are actually right but you are the biggest, jerkiest kind of right there is.

I was vaguely sorta almost reasonable in the very beginning of the thread, unless you count me being mad at politicians, but you time me having to make the same arguments that have already been made in this thread and ignored here again, and then with Nik on Facebook, and however other many times I've had to make them today, and all my nice drains away and I just want to tell people to fuck off with their opinions. That doesn't make it okay. I'm just explaining why I've been even more assholish than usual.

It was unfair of me to target blues the way I did, I'll admit. I saw him leading into the same argument I'd had today already, and got ahead of myself. That was wrong of me. After hearing that argument so many times, I kinda want to kill it before it starts.

Sorry for being a dick, blues. At least, I'm sorry for this time.

And no, just because someone else said something mean doesn't mean you can say something mean. You picked out one line of Blues but it was after you fucking vomited your angst all over him. I almost never see eye to eye with Blues but you deserved to be told to fuck off.

And no, just because someone else said something mean doesn't mean you can say something mean.

That was actually the point I was making by picking that particular quote.

[Mesden]

Fuck, not used to people agreeing with my criticisms of their character.

So how bout that DADT, what a piece of absolute garbage amirite?

[Kim]

Originally Posted by Mesden

Fuck, not used to people agreeing with my criticisms of their character.

Check.

Mate.

So how bout that DADT, what a piece of absolute garbage amirite?

Honestly, as big of a dick as I've been to people, I think it says something about the quality of this forum that we haven't had anyone argue that gays in the military is bad or anything like that. I mean, I kinda wish we did, because that shit's hilarious to tear apart, but you know you've got a pretty decent forum when the community isn't composed of rampant homophobes.

Originally Posted by POS Industries

Basically the issue is that haters gonna hate, and there are many that are concerned that there are potential legal loopholes that said haters can take advantage of to continue hating unless it's explicitly--and without any other interpretation--stated that those loopholes are gone, too.

Which is a legitimate concern to have. What's not legitimate are statements like "Repealing DADT will only make things worse" and any and all variations thereof, which is where I take issue. The basic argument that I keep seeing made is that we need to put off repealing DADT until we can also get rid of these loopholes at the same time. To put it nicely, it's a ridiculous argument for all the reasons stated throughout this thread.

The reason I got really pissed off is that this is not the first time these arguments have been made. This is not the first time these flaws have been pointed out in them. This is not the first time those flaws were ignored. I accused people of straightsplaining because they claimed to be on the side of gay rights, argued against the immediate repeal of a law that oppressed gays, and ignored points brought up to counter their argument.

Yes, they said they were against the law and it should be repealed, but statements like that start to feel hollow when you more or less say "Well, you can't just repeal it now, you gotta do this and this and this first" and "Gay rights matter, but they shouldn't be won this way." Much more the former than the latter, because the former is that one where the counter-points were first brought up and ignored. Had they expressed concerns with the points brought up, or countered the counter-points, that'd be one thing, but they just ignored them because they didn't support their argument. At least, that's the way it looks from my end. Maybe I somehow missed a dozen or so posts where people pointed out how I was wrong in that regard, but I haven't seen it.

People arguing against a step forward for the gay rights movement, even a small step, because they claim it's "for our own good," and then acting as though they're still gay allies kinda pisses me off. Doubly so when it happens repeatedly.

[Nikose Tyris]

Originally Posted by NonCon

The problem that I keep explaining is that you have these people who claim to be gay allies, and they say that DADT is the only thing protecting us from the UCMJ and being treated like shit in the military. This is things I have seen people state in this thread, and it is dumb as fuck. I will now point out problems with that argument.

The problem is that I know that and I have agreed with you on it from the start. When I was first against DADT 2 years ago I was in the same boat as you are right now, and I was in exactly the same position. It is two years later and I STILL FEEL THAT WAY. DADT did -nothing-. It was MEANT to do something, but what is was meant to do not only didn't work, but it was homophobic in it's application.

Originally Posted by NonCon

Problem - DADT doesn't actually do that. It just lets people who don't know any better pretend that they've done something, however small, to protect the gays.

Yes, see, that's exactly my arguement.

Originally Posted by NonCon

Problem - The Don't Ask part of DADT is completely ignored when some jerkass wants to find out if one of the people is gay and they actively try and find that out.

Yes, I'm aware of that, but I don't think a lot of people are. One of the opening interview questions I received during canvasing was "Are you gay?", so, yes, I know that they ignore it.

Originally Posted by NonCon

Problem - DADT doesn't just keep gays from being open in the military. If someone outside the military who knows you're gay gets pissed off and tells someone in the military, you can still be discharged. That is a thing that has happened.

Yeah, it's fucking awful that DADT doesn't provide any kind of protection that shouldn't be needed in the first place, we get that.

Originally Posted by NonCon

Problem - DADT being repealed doesn't send out a psychic wave that makes every gay in the military come out of the closet. If they still do not feel it's safe to come out, then they will not come out. Even if they ask "Are you gay?", you can lie. Any claims that they'll try and find out are pointless because they're trying to find out already.

'Trying to find out' is a touchy thing. The easy arguement could be made that this is the internet age; "Are you gay?" "No." "Facebook says otherwise," Seems like an easy enough arguement to make, but, once again- DADT didn't actually stop that from happening. DADT is a raincoat made of toilet paper that actually makes you feel MORE wet in the rain.

Originally Posted by NonCon

Problem - So long as DADT is in place, it's going to be really hard to get rid of these other laws. Yes, it would be fine and dandy if we could magically get rid of them all at once, but that's not how it works. That's not how it's worked with any other civil rights movement ever, and that's not how it's going to work here. It's going to be a long painful fight, and one of the steps is getting rid of DADT.

1994 isn't that long. 1942 was the first iteration of actually having 'homosexual' in the rules and saying 'NO U', and gays have been getting thrown out earlier then that even. DADT is just the most recent name attached to it.

Originally Posted by NonCon

These things have been pointed out, not just in this thread, but other DADT threads before it. You still get the same arguments from people like Blues and Nik who think DADT is in our best interest until those other laws are gone, but that's not how it works. Every time it's pointed out that that's not how it works, and explained the ways in which that is not how it works, there is never an actual response. They ignore it for a while, and then repeat the same arguments.

For the last time- DADT does need to go. It's shitty TPRaincoat is about as effective as it sounds. But would you be interested in hearing what DADT DOES do? It throws you out of the military when you are found out. Without DADT? You're subject to full Court-Martial, instead of a flat, regulated dishonorable discharge. The full range of fines and imprisonment are there.

Go ahead, Non. Look it up. Read back before 1990 and read about some of the punishments that gays have received. Read about the execution in 1987 for being openly gay in the military.

That sound like an arguement? It's a shitty, useless, do-nothing raincoat. It's not even RESPONSIBLE for that change- it just convieniently happens to be around the same time DADT 1994 was put in, but its an arguement I've had to face repeatedly.

Originally Posted by NonCon

I am sick and tired of hearing straight people tell me what's best for gay people while ignoring the arguments coming from gay people, and yes it does matter that the gay people are the ones making these arguments because we're the ones being oppressed. As such, I am going to use phrases like straightsplaining and hetsplaining because that is an accurate description of what you people are doing and it's frustrating as hell.

It's hard to have any empathy for you when you call me a homophobe for agreeing with you, and attending, participating and working to stop DADT when it's a law in the US that doesn't apply to me.

It's hard listening to someone who insists that he's being persecuted even when people agree with him, and has an insistence to seek out poor choices of words or take one bad phrase and use it like a republican and a bible verse. But instead, hey, keep on attacking me and my viewpoint (the same viewpoint you have), because I'll still be out defending and arguing in your favor regardless, just like I was before.

I'm just frustrated at the 'lol homophobe' you keep flinging at me when I'm pretty openly, not only Bisexual, but also Polyfidelous. [Not really open here, but twitter/facebook I'm openly queer.] I don't even know how that works. Is that like an anti-semetic hebrew? I know they exist but it seems awkward to pull off.

Edit: and I have never, EVER said we should put off repealing DADT. I once left an ambigious statement that could be taken that way if you were looking to pick a fight. My entire stance the entire time was that the Repealing DADT would leave both terrible laws and Old White Heteros going "Well, we did a great thing today! Let's take the week off and not look at any of the other underlying issues!".

The real issue behind everything is that sexuality needs to be a garunteed right in the constitution. Every gay issue today stems from gays being considered inferior, or less then a Heterosexual Male. (I'm using Heterosexual Male because women are sadly lacking a lot of constitution rights as well, and that's ANOTHER hot button that I deal with.)

That will trickle down using Judicial precedent to force changes to UCMJ, to force every state to have gay marriage as a standard, rather then the exception. The lack of constitutional rights and the lack of empathy for homosexuals is the gaping wound that every other law from DADT to Gay Marriage crawled out of.

Edit: And there's a special kind of rage that comes with having the knowledge and legal background to see, "Whoa, hey, what the fuck, look at those laws, those are fucking twisted" and having someone else chewing on my back for attempting to point them out.

Want to know what would be awesome? If the repeal failed - that could be applied as precedent that would close those loopholes that POS mentioned, and I desperately want that to happen. I don't want the appeal to happen at all; but since it pretty clearly is happening, that's the goal I'm working towards.