The Unpopular Opinions - Page 12

Kim · 08-21-2011, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Viridis

Opinions can't be wrong, Non. They're opinions.

My opinion is that opinions can be wrong.

WHAT NOW

The Sevenshot Kid · 08-21-2011, 07:57 PM

Let it be known:

Opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one and we all think they stink.

Gregness · 08-21-2011, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kerensky287

"Lady Gaga is talented" is not a popular opinion? Then where the fuck did all her fame come from?
...

I hope it's obvious that famous doesn't necessarily mean talented and that talented doesn't mean famous. I mean, Spice girls, Britney Spears, both relatively famous and not that talented.

OPINION THE SECOND: Steak is meh.

Solid Snake · 08-21-2011, 08:00 PM

It's possible to personally find someone ugly and simultaneously concede that the consensus opinion among others is that she isn't.
I know that is true because it's precisely how I feel about Lady Gaga.

Like I'll concede a number of people I know completely disagree with me, but it doesn't stop me from thinking every time I see an image of her that she's ugly, or at the very least, so directly inverse and opposite of whatever "my type" is that she belongs in a distinct minority group of celebrities who I would brazenly reject if she randomly waltzed up to me and flirted with me.

(Well I'd reject her based on her appearance alone and in absence of all other factors; once you add her exorbitant wealth and fame into the equation, not to mention whatever her private-life personality may actually be like, it becomes a bit harder to gauge how I'd actually react in such a hypothetical circumstance.)

Way to over-analyze things, Solid Snake!

Kim · 08-21-2011, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solid Snake

Way to be wrong, Solid Snake!

FTFY

The Sevenshot Kid · 08-21-2011, 08:05 PM

The Last Temptation of Christ is better than the New Testament.

Krylo · 08-21-2011, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Viridis

Opinions can't be wrong, Non. They're opinions.

Opinions can totally be wrong, as that it's totally possible to have an opinion that is contrary to observable fact.

See: Flat Earth Society, Anti-Evolution Groups, Etc. Etc.

Physical attractiveness is something of a grey area as that we do have sciences that dissect what is most commonly found attractive in other people etc.

I would suggest that saying "Lady Gaga is ugly" is an incorrect opinion as that her facial structure is symmetrical, her complexion is clear, she is of a healthy weight, has a feminine figure, etc. etc. Basically you can go down the checklist of things that make other people generally attractive outside of fetishism and she hits them all based purely on her natural outward appearance. This is probably a large part of why she's a (parody of a) pop musician (and the culture of pop music) and not still doing jazz.

On the other hand saying that, "I find Lady Gaga to be ugly/unattractive" is an entirely valid opinion that admits to one's own biases.

On the other other hand, any opinion given in this thread should probably just be understand to have the 'I find" or "In my opinion" thrown in front of it because this is a thread for opinions that are flat out unpopular.

Viridis · 08-21-2011, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Opinions can totally be wrong, as that it's totally possible to have an opinion that is contrary to observable fact.

See: Flat Earth Society, Anti-Evolution Groups, Etc. Etc.

But those aren't opinions, are they? Opinions are, at least in my internal definition, something that can't be proven like that, something that differs from person to person. Whether something's funny, whether someone's pretty, etc.

In this view, whether the Earth is round, something you can prove or disprove with science, isn't an opinion.

Osterbaum · 08-21-2011, 08:13 PM

But what is it then, if not an opinion?

edit: Contrary to what I though, I have been informed that I have a unpopular opinion: I think "Jets" is the dumbest name for a sports team I've ever heard.

Solid Snake · 08-21-2011, 08:22 PM

WALL OF TEXT INCOMING

Also there is a difference between opinions which are completely subjective on the part of the beholder (and thus cannot be wrong) and opinions that are nonetheless framed in such a manner that they rely on knowledge that is presumably objective, empirical and can be measured and is intended to evoke debate through assertion.

For example:

If someone says a Kei$ha tune is "better to listen to," from their subjective viewpoint, than Beethoven's 5th Symphony, there is no way that individual's personal opinion could truly be "wrong." Merely asserting a personal preference in favor of one product over another is a judgment call we all have the right to make. And really, those who would say they "prefer" Kei$ha over Beethoven probably do not believe, and would not objectively assert, that Kei$ha truly had an objective sway over musical culture that by any means rivaled Beethoven's, or that music historians should spend their time studying Kei$ha instead of Beethoven. They might just dislike the sound of classical music, or they might have listened to a Kei$ha song while their son or daughter was born or as they engaged in a marriage proposal or something that left a nostalgic mark, or who knows.

A comparable example: I like Suikoden 2 more than Legend of Zelda: Ocraina of Time. That's a true statement, it actually measures my subjective taste in both games. But that statement on its own is not akin to a statement that I personally hold the belief that Suikoden 2 objectively holds more merit as a videogame and in its context in the industry and gaming culture as a whole than OoT.

Now the problem is there's a very different kind of definition of 'opinion,' though, that the English vocabulary apparently has not seen fit to distinguish from the earlier opinions I've defined. It's the person who actually asserts: "In my opinion, Kei$ha is better than Beethoven" and means his statement not just as a personal sentiment of subjective taste but also as a personal sentiment of objective merit. This would be akin to me saying, "I truly do believe that Suikoden 2 is better than OoT, and I also believe experts in the gaming industry and other objective onlookers should hold the same opinion, and if they don't they're missing something." There's something akin to an assertion of fact in there, even though the statement itself is phrased as an opinion and presumably only evokes an opinion.

It's just a weird observation that the latter totally blurs the definition of "opinion" and "fact;" while the person asserting is not claiming his opinion is technical irrefutable knowledge on par with "Caesar was killed in 44 BC," there's an underlying assessment of objectivity in the latter type of claim: "I'm not only saying that I believe this but I'm also saying YOU *SHOULD* believe this too."

And sometimes it's different to distinguish exactly what kind of opinion the speaker is evoking.
Examples: When I say "In my opinion, Suikoden 2 is better than OoT," I don't intend to say that you should also believe that Suikoden 2 is better than OoT. In fact, even though I don't state this in phrasing the opinion, I implicitly and personally acknowledge the consensus opinion that OoT is the better game and, if I were hired to be a Video Game Journalist and asked to "objectively" rate Suikoden 2 and OoT in a "Top Ten" list, I'd rank OoT higher. For its cultural impact, because most other gamers like it more, because it may objectively be better polished, etc.

BUT: When I say "In my opinion, James Taylor is a better songwriter than Lady Gaga," I actually am intending to assert that I have a sufficient underlying knowledge to believe that James Taylor is a better songwriter than Lady Gaga, and I also believe that you should agree with me, and if you don't agree with me I'd rather like to convince you that I'm right. Note that I'd hold the aforementioned opinion even if it was not a majority opinion: if a majority of Americans polled believed Lady Gaga was a better songwriter, I'd still advocate my opinion and want you to believe the majority was wrong and I was right. My statement is still an 'opinion' and not 'fact' (you may well disagree with me, there's no single technical or scientific way to rate quality of songwriting, etc.) but I'd feel more offended and combative if told point-blank that the opinion was 'wrong' or 'baseless.'

And the English language fails insofar as both statements I've described are articulated in our language as 'opinions,' when there should be two separate words for 'opinion' that subtly distinguish between them so listeners know exactly which one of the two positions your opinion is advocating.

I guess what I'm saying is...
...I don't even know what I'm saying anymore but I'm going to post this anyway because I wasted far too much time thinking about it.

EDIT: Shut up Non I'm entitled to my own subjective opinion and you can't force me to define 'beauty' in any particular way, beauty belongs to the eyes of the beholder. :P

08-21-2011, 08:00 PM	#114
Solid Snake Erotic Esquire Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 5,563	It's possible to personally find someone ugly and simultaneously concede that the consensus opinion among others is that she isn't. I know that is true because it's precisely how I feel about Lady Gaga. Like I'll concede a number of people I know completely disagree with me, but it doesn't stop me from thinking every time I see an image of her that she's ugly, or at the very least, so directly inverse and opposite of whatever "my type" is that she belongs in a distinct minority group of celebrities who I would brazenly reject if she randomly waltzed up to me and flirted with me. (Well I'd reject her based on her appearance alone and in absence of all other factors; once you add her exorbitant wealth and fame into the equation, not to mention whatever her private-life personality may actually be like, it becomes a bit harder to gauge how I'd actually react in such a hypothetical circumstance.) *Way to over-analyze things, Solid Snake!* __________________ *WARNING:* Snek's all up in this thread. Be prepared to read massive walls of text.

08-21-2011, 08:13 PM	#119
Osterbaum The revolution will be memed! Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: FIN Posts: 5,967	But what is it then, if not an opinion? edit: Contrary to what I though, I have been informed that I have a unpopular opinion: I think "Jets" is the dumbest name for a sports team I've ever heard. __________________ D is for Dirty Commie! Last edited by Osterbaum; 08-21-2011 at 08:20 PM.

08-21-2011, 08:22 PM	#120
Solid Snake Erotic Esquire Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 5,563	WALL OF TEXT INCOMING Also there is a difference between opinions which are completely subjective on the part of the beholder (and thus cannot be wrong) and opinions that are nonetheless framed in such a manner that they rely on knowledge that is presumably objective, empirical and can be measured and is intended to evoke debate through assertion. For example: If someone says a Kei$ha tune is "better to listen to," from their subjective viewpoint, than Beethoven's 5th Symphony, there is no way that individual's personal opinion could truly be "wrong." Merely asserting a personal preference in favor of one product over another is a judgment call we all have the right to make. And really, those who would say they "prefer" Kei$ha over Beethoven probably do not believe, and would not objectively assert, that Kei$ha truly had an objective sway over musical culture that by any means rivaled Beethoven's, or that music historians should spend their time studying Kei$ha instead of Beethoven. They might just dislike the sound of classical music, or they might have listened to a Kei$ha song while their son or daughter was born or as they engaged in a marriage proposal or something that left a nostalgic mark, or who knows. A comparable example: I like Suikoden 2 more than Legend of Zelda: Ocraina of Time. That's a true statement, it actually measures my subjective taste in both games. But that statement on its own is not akin to a statement that I personally hold the belief that Suikoden 2 objectively holds more merit as a videogame and in its context in the industry and gaming culture as a whole than OoT. Now the problem is there's a very different kind of definition of 'opinion,' though, that the English vocabulary apparently has not seen fit to distinguish from the earlier opinions I've defined. It's the person who actually asserts: "In my opinion, Kei$ha is better than Beethoven" and means his statement not just as a personal sentiment of subjective taste but also as a personal sentiment of objective merit. This would be akin to me saying, "I truly do believe that Suikoden 2 is better than OoT, and I also believe experts in the gaming industry and other objective onlookers should hold the same opinion, and if they don't they're missing something." There's something akin to an assertion of fact in there, even though the statement itself is phrased as an opinion and presumably only evokes an opinion. It's just a weird observation that the latter totally blurs the definition of "opinion" and "fact;" while the person asserting is not claiming his opinion is technical irrefutable knowledge on par with "Caesar was killed in 44 BC," there's an underlying assessment of objectivity in the latter type of claim: "I'm not only saying that I believe this but I'm also saying YOU SHOULD* believe this too."* And sometimes it's different to distinguish exactly what kind of opinion the speaker is evoking. Examples: When I say "In my opinion, Suikoden 2 is better than OoT," I don't intend to say that you should also believe that Suikoden 2 is better than OoT. In fact, even though I don't state this in phrasing the opinion, I implicitly and personally acknowledge the consensus opinion that OoT is the better game and, if I were hired to be a Video Game Journalist and asked to "objectively" rate Suikoden 2 and OoT in a "Top Ten" list, I'd rank OoT higher. For its cultural impact, because most other gamers like it more, because it may objectively be better polished, etc. *BUT:* When I say "In my opinion, James Taylor is a better songwriter than Lady Gaga," I actually am intending to assert that I have a sufficient underlying knowledge to believe that James Taylor is a better songwriter than Lady Gaga, and I also believe that you should agree with me, and if you don't agree with me I'd rather like to convince you that I'm right. Note that I'd hold the aforementioned opinion even if it was not a majority opinion: if a majority of Americans polled believed Lady Gaga was a better songwriter, I'd still advocate my opinion and want you to believe the majority was wrong and I was right. My statement is still an 'opinion' and not 'fact' (you may well disagree with me, there's no single technical or scientific way to rate quality of songwriting, etc.) but I'd feel more offended and combative if told point-blank that the opinion was 'wrong' or 'baseless.' And the English language fails insofar as both statements I've described are articulated in our language as 'opinions,' when there should be two separate words for 'opinion' that subtly distinguish between them so listeners know exactly which one of the two positions your opinion is advocating. I guess what I'm saying is... ...I don't even know what I'm saying anymore but I'm going to post this anyway because I wasted far too much time thinking about it. EDIT: Shut up Non I'm entitled to my own subjective opinion and you can't force me to define 'beauty' in any particular way, beauty belongs to the eyes of the beholder. :P __________________ *WARNING:* Snek's all up in this thread. Be prepared to read massive walls of text. Last edited by Solid Snake; 08-21-2011 at 08:26 PM.