A conversation about conversations about bigotry

[Ecks]

I actually had to read the whole thread, think ten minutes, and hesitated for a few more before deciding to post in this thread.

I don't have the greatest track record in this arena (i.e. Draw Muhammed Day). I would like to at least admit to having some prejudices and behavior learned from my upbringing. I'd also like to admit to having my world view changed, and that I'm actively attempting to better myself.

Oppression in the form of bigotry exists. No point in trying to pretend it doesn't, or that it doesn't affect you (whether or not you come from a "priveleged" society). Making an offensive comment doesn't make you a bad person, regardless of your intent behind it. Knowing what makes the comment offensive, knowing it's wrong, and refusing to admit your wrong doing? Thats what makes you a douchebag.

While I'm at it, I'd like to posit something. If theres an issue with it later, I'll apologize and admit I was wrong, because I actually do give a shit about all of you people (yes, even you Smarty and Rob).

Liz is an asshole. Now let me tell you why this is not such a bad thing.

Liz is passionate about these controversial topics. She is full of piss and vinegar, and is not afraid to call out a douche for saying something thats not kosher. She is aggressive, and in spite of all of that, is a generally likable person, when not agitated. Most of these things are positive attributes (or I at least find them positive). I am a person who uses the term asshole endearingly. My brother, for example, is an asshole. And I love him for it. A lot of friends and coworkers of mine are assholes, and I get along with them swimmingly.

Assholes for the most part are striving toward a positive result. If Liz trying to strive for a more responsible, aware, and generally less biggoted forum makes her an asshole, then we ought to follow her example.

I would like to point out that I don't agree with her on many points, namely her flippan attitude toward the mod staff, and that she cannot back down from an argument (whether or not she's wrong - sometimes you can't win, so you bow out gracefully) for civility's sake. But I admire her moxie.

I'd also like to encourage people to nose around the sensitive topics where they wouldn't before. Not necessarily to chime in on just any old thing, but because I find you learn a lot about yourself when you venture into shitstorms, and you might just surprise yourself! In reading the first half of this thread, I got angrier and angrier at every post liz made. Aside from her usual vitriol, and her attitude toward the mods, she was in the right.

I realized I was angry because I didnt agree with her points. I was perfectly fine with an off color joke from time to time, and with pretending issues related to bigotry didnt exist because they didnt affect me in a noticable way. Who was this jerkburger making waves and telling people off for making "not serious" stereotype jokes?

Kind of sobering, realizing you aren't exactly the paragon of equality and sensitivity.

I'll cut this off here, I'm not so good at the wall o text thing, with my sincere promise to watch my tongue and my keypad, and continue to admit that I'm wrong when I get called out on it.

now can we please get back to our regularly scheduled programming all this srsbzns is harshing my chill afternoon

[Pip Boy]

I think we've lost something valuable in all the discussion of this, which is the spirit behind it to begin with. There have been loads of people arguing about whether its okay to be extremely rude and disrespectful to people you've been calling biggoted, but ignorance is a two-way street.

In the end the philisophical question of "Is it okay to be brazenly awful to people as long as you're being an activist about it" isn't even relevant to this, since history has showed us time and time again that we can be activists without being jerks about it. The most successful and famous activists in our history were the ones that themselves kept and open mind and were themselves respectful and fair.

The entire spirit of all this opposition of biggotry and mistreatment of the minority is to promote fair treatment of all people, and thus we have no place standing on a soap-box talking about these things if we are not, ourselves, willing to treat people fairly.

Its gotten to the point where I don't even feel like it matters what I say here anymore. Thats ultimately what triggered all of this. I said something that contained no disrespect to anyone except a category limited to mass-murderers and as a result my words were warped and I was jumped on about it. Then I try to express my concerns in the most respectful and fair way possible and I'm jumped on about that. Someone does this to me for weeks, warping everything I say and making me out to be the boogeyman, and when I complain about that mistreatment, I'm accused of singling someone out. Im tired of being everyone's fucking strawman. I am unable to contribute anything of value to this forum when anything and everything I say is going to be smelted down and remanufactured as ammo to shot at me.

Meanwhile the person that does it praised like fucking Batman for being the person that goes the extra mile to burn awful hateful spiteful biggots like me who oh wait were actually just trying themselves to be fair and open-minded and spat upon for it. It has grown to the point where I am either completely and totally delusional or people are spitting on me and being thanked for it. Its disgusting, and being made to post here under that kind of double-standard narrative is why its just not working for me anymore.

So contratulations. I guess you won Liz. This particular abberant entitled jerk submits. I am everything that is wrong with the world and I hate myself.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

You're all bigots, ~both sidez~ of this argument, let it go and have a sweet bigot tea party where you can all sip freely from bigotea and sing songs about bigotyou and bigotme.
Cause as hilarious as this all is, you should be uniting against your common enemy, the reds under your bed.

Also Pip_Boy Ghandhi was one of history's greatest fuckholes.

[Solid Snake]

Originally Posted by Ecks

I'll cut this off here, I'm not so good at the wall o text thing,

I should charge $100 per hour for 'Wall of Text' lessons.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Can't you do it for free, for the betterment of your peers?

[Ecks]

no offense pip but I think it stopped being about you a long fucking time ago

[Ecks]

snakes got loans to pay back dude

[Professor Smarmiarty]

He can do it with the ridiculous sums of money he legals out of the pocket of the common man.

[Amake]

Half of law school is teaching you to lay your words gracefully, convincingly and comprehensively*. Seems fair to me.

[Osterbaum]

no offense pip but I think it stopped being about you a long fucking time ago

Pip, this has never really been about you. And I don't mean for that to sound mean in any way, imagine me saying it with a perfectly calm and non-hostile tone.