READ THIS, you slack-jawed idiots, or THE NEW CONSOLE WARS, z0MG! - Page 14

Bells · 06-09-2006, 12:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fifthfiend

Honestly, I wasn't that impressed.

Just got a huge uncanny valley vibe off the whole thing.

hum! Funny enough i just noticed that the Wikipedia page on this matter was updated with a Link talking about THIS tech demo

Also on this
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_Rain

So, with a whole year ahead to work on this, and this animations in real time being so important to this title, i actually belive that there is a chance for this company to push BEYOND the valley

Sithdarth · 06-09-2006, 01:36 AM

See they've pretty much maxed out what the hardware can do graphics wise with that demo. Sure they didn't put a lot of time into it but it wasn't very long. Nor did it allow for free form input of motion and all that. Also, once you hit that level of detail looking more human isn't about how many polygons and how much detail texture-wise you can shove on the screen.

What made that character so uncanny was the slightly unnatural movement. The way clothes and skin didn't bend and wrinkle quite right. This leads to a plastic feel to the whole thing. If they couldn't get those right in a tech demo that short in a few weeks with probably 10 or more people working then its not going to happen in a game. I still doubt even the PS3 has the power to render graphics that detailed while running a physics engine robust enough to wrinkle clothes properly.

Oh and this was never a problem before because of the lack of detail. There the player was allowed to suspend disbelief and fill in the gaps. Here it just looks far to human for those little things not to freak me out. Hell I had trouble with some of the CG scenes in FFX. If the whole game had been like that I probably would have shut it off 10 minutes in.

spazzhands · 06-09-2006, 03:46 AM

And you do know that someone still had to draw all those little details in the demo...

Its not like the PS3 has an imagination of its own that allows it to create its own cutscenes! A team of artists still had to make it, and they all need to be paid... And in a real game, you also need to pay the level designers, the programmers, the animators, whoever works on the physics, and all the actors. Even if you have people do several of those jobs at once, because you are paying for their time...

Sure, you don't need to put that much effort into a single game that most people will probably have stopped playing in five weeks... But then again, who would buy it then? Its not like creativity makes enough money nowadays. People will buy the next shinier sequel because they know what they are buying. Game designers have too much at stake with something like PS3.

I live in England, I pay enough for my games as it is!

Fifthfiend · 06-09-2006, 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bellsouth Minion

hum! Funny enough i just noticed that the Wikipedia page on this matter was updated with a Link talking about THIS tech demo

Huh, you know, I didn't even catch that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bellsouth Minion

So, with a whole year ahead to work on this, and this animations in real time being so important to this title, i actually belive that there is a chance for this company to push BEYOND the valley

I'll believe it when I see it.

[ray.z] · 06-09-2006, 08:34 AM

Words cannot express how awesome that video was.

I seriously can't describe it. All I can say is that my breathing is damn heavy.

It looked so damn realistic, and that's ironic cause it's a demo for an audition game. But I seriously thought that the girl was real, especially when she was holding the gun up. It was so damn ... ... beautiful.

I'd love to see all PS3 games like that (even though I probably won't get one).

My friends and I discussed at some point what developers would do with 25 gigs of space per blu ray disc - we thought it would be unlikely that they could even fill it up, and even came up with the thought that they'd proably just put several languages of the game onto one disc.

Oh how wrong we were.

But like what's been said before by myself and other's - how will every PS3 game be able to match up to that amazing level of quality. Developers would be very hard pressed to do so.

Hey, good luck to them - cause if they can match such graphics like that with incredible gameplay, games will become more entertaining then ever. While they may not be as involved as the Wii, they'll make games seem like darn movies with the audience (i.e. you) playing a role.

It's a shame she was too tall though - the demo would have been better :p .

ZAKtheGeek · 06-09-2006, 07:43 PM

The lips seemed very unnatural to me. I'm not sure why exactly, maybe they were too static or something...

Quote:

I still doubt even the PS3 has the power to render graphics that detailed while running a physics engine robust enough to wrinkle clothes properly.

And even if it can? This is what the cell processor does for you. This is what you'd be paying for. Properly wrinkling clothes. This is my main problem with the graphical game improvement approach: the stunning inefficiency.

Krylo · 06-09-2006, 08:01 PM

They were a bit static, and didn't move with the rest of her face/her voice properly.

They were also slightly further away from her teeth than they should have been in a few shots, and the inside of her mouth in general could have used some work--a lot of that was probably projected to her lips, as that her mouth looked wrong from it, and the lips looked wrong... so unless you were looking closely you'd probably attribute it all to the lips.

Also, I'd like to point people who accuse the PS3 games of all falling into uncanny valley to the FFXIII trailer. That's what games are probably going to look like.

FURTHER, for those who assume that this is the 'epitome' of PS3 graphics and they won't move beyond it, I'd like to point out the vast graphical difference between FF7 and FFIX.

Both ran on the PS1 but one was made early, with only rudimentary understanding of the PS1's system and devkits. The other was made near the end of the PS1's run.

The difference in graphical quality almost makes them look like they're from different systems.

Further, smooth movement is generally something that is controlled by internal processes in the game's programming that can take months to program out properly. Not something that is done purely by the people doing the graphics.

Yes, a week or so seems like a long time to spend on something that short, but in practice it's just not so. Given a few months to create the internal software to control her movement they could have extended that scene for hours with greater realism, and about the same amount of 'actual' graphics work, textures and what have you--assuming that the cell processer is capable of it (which, given that no console has ever been tapped anywhere NEAR to its fullest potential even within the first year of release, much less before release, I'm going to give the benefit of the doubt).

That was something some people spent a few weeks on, and which was done before the PS3 ever came out.

Graphics in fully made games have months or longer spent on them, with teams of equal or greater size working on them.

And, more over, the devkits most likely aren't fully understood, nor has the true depth of the system's ability been developed. Any logical conclusion coming from past experiences from every console ever created can only be that this is merely scratching the surface of the capabilities of the PS3.

Plus, just look at that gun and kitchen. Seriously. Wow.

Fifthfiend · 06-09-2006, 08:31 PM

I'm not making any overall judgements here.

Sometimes you get Advent Children, sometimes you get Spirits Within.

Also, having sat through the whole thing, the Uncanny Valley-ness of that whole thing sort of fades as you get into it. I don't know if it's just less noticable the more you watch or if it just happens to work in the context of her 'playing' a menacing crazy revenge-killer.

Bells · 06-09-2006, 08:35 PM

The PS3 is annoucing that the things we dreamed of with the PS1 (Playable CG's) can be done now...

A small idea can make jsut about all the difference... like it was said... FF7 to FF9... same Hardware... just 1 more Disc... more knowledge on the "Knowhow" department... and there we go...

Firs they started on 3d only with squares... then, someone tried Triangles and the whole thing changed for better!

I saw the Sonic Demo for the Wii... and i really think it sucked... BUT im pretty darn sure that the Wii will give us a LOT of good titles... later... the same with the PS3...

Its not just about the pretty graphics... (although they ARE going for some quite nice stuuf here and there) ...but nice Physics... well develope Ragdolls, games with 60-80-120 hours of non-boring gameplay, live scenary... i really think that we are in for some real nice surprises next year

spazzhands · 06-10-2006, 07:43 AM

Check the bold section.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bellsouth Minion

The PS3 is annoucing that the things we dreamed of with the PS1 (Playable CG's) can be done now...

Its not just about the pretty graphics... (although they ARE going for some quite nice stuuf here and there) ...but nice Physics... well develope Ragdolls, games with 60-80-120 hours of non-boring gameplay, live scenary... i really think that we are in for some real nice surprises next year

But will that ever happen... Will it Buggery!
Face it, people still have to make the games themselves, the console merely runs it. Will game developers ever make a game that long if it requires any extra development or effort. No. Because they don't have to!
We gamers are willing to pay for a game that only lasts us 9 hours at worst. If the designers think they can get away with twelve hours of gameplay, then they will use twelve. And then make a semi-sequel if the first half of the game is a success. Its not like they would want you to only pay once for the game they put so much effort into! I certainly wouldn't, and if the price is going up for the games, its for the ridiculously expensive graphics, not the amount of fun you have playing it!

06-09-2006, 08:01 PM	#137
Krylo The Straightest Shota Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: It's a secret to everybody. Posts: 17,789	They were a bit static, and didn't move with the rest of her face/her voice properly. They were also slightly further away from her teeth than they should have been in a few shots, and the inside of her mouth in general could have used some work--a lot of that was probably projected to her lips, as that her mouth looked wrong from it, and the lips looked wrong... so unless you were looking closely you'd probably attribute it all to the lips. Also, I'd like to point people who accuse the PS3 games of all falling into uncanny valley to the FFXIII trailer. That's what games are probably going to look like. FURTHER, for those who assume that this is the 'epitome' of PS3 graphics and they won't move beyond it, I'd like to point out the vast graphical difference between FF7 and FFIX. Both ran on the PS1 but one was made early, with only rudimentary understanding of the PS1's system and devkits. The other was made near the end of the PS1's run. The difference in graphical quality almost makes them look like they're from different systems. Further, smooth movement is generally something that is controlled by internal processes in the game's programming that can take months to program out properly. Not something that is done purely by the people doing the graphics. Yes, a week or so seems like a long time to spend on something that short, but in practice it's just not so. Given a few months to create the internal software to control her movement they could have extended that scene for hours with greater realism, and about the same amount of 'actual' graphics work, textures and what have you--assuming that the cell processer is capable of it (which, given that no console has ever been tapped anywhere NEAR to its fullest potential even within the first year of release, much less before release, I'm going to give the benefit of the doubt). That was something some people spent a few weeks on, and which was done before the PS3 ever came out. Graphics in fully made games have months or longer spent on them, with teams of equal or greater size working on them. And, more over, the devkits most likely aren't fully understood, nor has the true depth of the system's ability been developed. Any logical conclusion coming from past experiences from every console ever created can only be that this is merely scratching the surface of the capabilities of the PS3. Plus, just look at that gun and kitchen. Seriously. Wow. __________________ I am very tired.

06-09-2006, 08:31 PM	#138
Fifthfiend for all seasons Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 19,409	I'm not making any overall judgements here. Sometimes you get Advent Children, sometimes you get Spirits Within. Also, having sat through the whole thing, the Uncanny Valley-ness of that whole thing sort of fades as you get into it. I don't know if it's just less noticable the more you watch or if it just happens to work in the context of her 'playing' a menacing crazy revenge-killer. __________________ check out my buttspresso

06-09-2006, 08:35 PM	#139
Bells That's so PC of you Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: In a Server-sided Dimension where time is meaningless Posts: 10,490	The PS3 is annoucing that the things we dreamed of with the PS1 (Playable CG's) can be done now... A small idea can make jsut about all the difference... like it was said... FF7 to FF9... same Hardware... just 1 more Disc... more knowledge on the "Knowhow" department... and there we go... Firs they started on 3d only with squares... then, someone tried Triangles and the whole thing changed for better! I saw the Sonic Demo for the Wii... and i really think it sucked... BUT im pretty darn sure that the Wii will give us a LOT of good titles... later... the same with the PS3... Its not just about the pretty graphics... (although they ARE going for some quite nice stuuf here and there) ...but nice Physics... well develope Ragdolls, games with 60-80-120 hours of non-boring gameplay, live scenary... i really think that we are in for some real nice surprises next year __________________ *BELLS STORE : Clothes! You wear* them! Free US Shipping Subscription System? WTF?! Zazzle Black!**

06-09-2006, 01:36 AM	#132
Sithdarth Friendly Neighborhood Quantum Hobo Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Outside the M-brane look'n in Posts: 5,403	See they've pretty much maxed out what the hardware can do graphics wise with that demo. Sure they didn't put a lot of time into it but it wasn't very long. Nor did it allow for free form input of motion and all that. Also, once you hit that level of detail looking more human isn't about how many polygons and how much detail texture-wise you can shove on the screen. What made that character so uncanny was the slightly unnatural movement. The way clothes and skin didn't bend and wrinkle quite right. This leads to a plastic feel to the whole thing. If they couldn't get those right in a tech demo that short in a few weeks with probably 10 or more people working then its not going to happen in a game. I still doubt even the PS3 has the power to render graphics that detailed while running a physics engine robust enough to wrinkle clothes properly. Oh and this was never a problem before because of the lack of detail. There the player was allowed to suspend disbelief and fill in the gaps. Here it just looks far to human for those little things not to freak me out. Hell I had trouble with some of the CG scenes in FFX. If the whole game had been like that I probably would have shut it off 10 minutes in.

06-09-2006, 03:46 AM	#133
spazzhands spazzhands Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: staines, england Posts: 195	And you do know that someone still had to draw all those little details in the demo... Its not like the PS3 has an imagination of its own that allows it to create its own cutscenes! A team of artists still had to make it, and they all need to be paid... And in a real game, you also need to pay the level designers, the programmers, the animators, whoever works on the physics, and all the actors. Even if you have people do several of those jobs at once, because you are paying for their time... Sure, you don't need to put that much effort into a single game that most people will probably have stopped playing in five weeks... But then again, who would buy it then? Its not like creativity makes enough money nowadays. People will buy the next shinier sequel because they know what they are buying. Game designers have too much at stake with something like PS3. I live in England, I pay enough for my games as it is!