Pokemon Umbral Discussion 33 again: Hijacked!

[Dracorion]

Focus fire. There'd be a lot of wasted turns if we played it defensive.

Still, we should make anyone with extra rage (Harliette, Charlotte?) pay for some protection.

[Menarker]

[Matthias] [Spitz] [Pike] [Bastiodon] [Illumise] [Harliette] [Vespiquen] [Togekiss] [Shaymin] [Palkia] [Aria] [Kingdra] [Fathom] [Impact] [Power Amplifier]

Ok, so Renny and his pokemons are included in the cost of Serene Blessing... The amplifier I think we can pretty much ignore. We can use rage of enforcers currently waiting behind our characters like we did last time...

Harriette can pay for 2.
Aster can pay for 1.
Cecilia can pay for 1.
Charlotte can pay for 1.

If Rachel gives a rage rocket to Charlotte, Cecilia or Aster, they can pay for an extra protection...

We could/should probably have Rachel give a rage rocket to Moon. Since Shannon has 55 rage now and Moon would have 55 afterwards, the two can do that Moonlight Disco to have the likely chance of flinching four targets (preferably the ones we aren't focusing on attacking.) We got 10 foes at the moment to deal with and with that move, we can flinch 4 of them. And that's before taking the 60% base flinch chance of Shaymin and Togekiss in account. (100% if it hits someone weak to flying and 30% if someone is resistant but not immune.)

And I just realized something. With AB setting Serene Blessing's cost to 70, I think that was intentional...
Remember how the last time that someone paid the extra 35 rage cost for Serene Blessing, that it gave an "naked angelic image" of the person who paid? Could you imagine if the cost was 65 instead and Renny was able to pay for activating AND pay the 35 rage to help someone else? >_> Everyone would SO embaressed, Renny included...
... Although that does make me think of what we would see if Charlotte ended up paying for Serene Blessing... =P


Anyhow, I'm off for work and won't be back for a bit.

[Dracorion]

I don't think anyone was thinking about naked angelic Renny, man.

Anyway, let's not use up too much Rage this turn. We don't really know what we're hitting. Most of our attacks are likely to be ineffective anyway. And we gotta think about building up Rage for the future. I'm hoping to be able to unleash all kinds of sweet hell on Miyo when she shows up.

Let's just protect the Slayers and Pokebrids, unless you can think of any of our pokemon being important enough as to need protection.

So... Cecilia can pay for Impact, Shannon can pay for Harliette and Aster can pay for Matt.

Rachel can use Rage Rockets on... whoever, but not so that person can spend them. Let's not use any Signature Techniques other than Renny's this turn at all, really.

Sure, we'd have to take most of the enemy hits but, A) when's the last time we didn't somehow disable a bunch of opponents so as not to take all of their hits? If we keep going like this, AB's going to nerf flinching, and do you really want that? and B) we can take it. Though we should probably replace Charlotte's, Harliette's, Pierce's and Moon's pokemon for more defensive ones if possible.

[Geminex]

Ah-ha-aaaaAAAAllrighty then, Menarker:

Ok, about the flanderization? That was distillation. I mean come on, are you saying that Renny wouldn't credit the victory to a) relationships between team members (trust, respect, and, most importantly, love?) b) friendship between trainers and pokemon?

Secondly, don't try to tell me about Erfworld. I am Parson. Or, well, actually, not really. What Parson does isn't reeeeally that much Strategy. It's much more thinking outside the box. Finding new ways of applying Erfworld's rules. Getting around certain restrictions. The volcano thing? That wasn't strategy. That was bullshit. Albeit highly successful bullshit.

And honestly? Ruin types easier than normal trainers? You're kidding. Seriously, what is your point here supposed to be? Renny didn't know which types were gonna be deployed next? Considering that switching pokemon is a free action, and you have enough pokemon that you'll usually have a good mix of types on the field at any time, that really doesn't in any way contribute to difficulty. At all. It's different, but it's in no way easier. Particularly since, power-wise, Ruin types blow non-ruin types out of the fucking water. AB did a good job at balancing the encounters, I think. And even if that weren't the case, in this mission so far, Impact has been way beyond Renny in terms of leadership skill.

And I'm not saying that Impact doesn't adapt. I'm saying that he doesn't rely on it, and when he plans ahead, he does plan for contingencies.

Sure, every character has different qualities. But I'm saying that Impact's various qualities make him most suitable for leadership.

Renny commanding Impact will... hopefully not happen. Like, seriously. It would be very bad for all involved. I won't say 'over my dead body', but I'm thinking it pretty hard.

And finally, that isn't what's necessarily appropriate for Impact to believe. It's actually what I think. And hell, if you can think of a good way, I'll prove it.

Aaand Drac:

Some people might consider that ruthlessness isn't actually a virtue.

It's kinda like ambition. Sometimes it's good, but most of the time it goes very very wrong.

Now, Pierce caring about dead civilians? Definitely a virtue.

See, I think everything has to be defined in terms of 'success'. A virtue (or, let's say, 'positive quality') is something that makes success more likely. Caring for civillians? Very ethical, very upstanding, but hardly improves our chances of success. In fact, depending on how much Pierce lets his care for the defenceless influence him, it might even be detrimental!

Whereas ruthlessness is the willingness to make sacrifices in pursuit of success, even if these sacrifices aren't moral, or socially acceptable. Considering the importance of the goal, it's probably going to be necessary to make a great many sacrifices. And it is going to be worth having made those sacrifices, even if it might not be very moral to do what Impact's gonna do.

Hell, you should be glad I'm offering up Impact to take on that burden. Or would either of you like to see your character have to choose between saving mankind or sacrificing their (pokemon team/close relatives/some other thing)?

Hey, the only person Pierce would sacrifice is himself. And why would you complain about that?

Also, seriously, Impact's speech there? It couldn't be MORE evil if you had Palpatine write it.

Whelp. Evil, it's what I do. And Impact does too. Though, like I said, later, he'll be less threatening. Less sinister. So much more... enlightened. And less talk of cleansing, it's too Third Reich. Now there's a hole I don't want to fall into.
And also, Pierce can be useful when he's alive! If he dies through me (while that's hardly likely) it'll be primarily through your dare.

Y'see, a leader is supposed to be someone everyone can trust. And trust works even better than manipulating people when it comes to getting them to do what you want.

Right here, right now, 'leader' is supposed to be 'the guy whose commanding will make success most likely'. And well, yeah, trust makes manipulation easier. But except for 'he's, like, totally creepy', there isn't any reason not to trust Impact. I mean, seriously. What counts more: A strange mode of speech and a few vague hints he might not like pokemon (AND OH MAN WHAT A CRIME THAT WOULD BE), or the fact that he's in charge, and will have been in charge, without screwing anyone over at all? Unless, I mean, everyone character in this RP is either massively superficial or acting on OOC knowlege?

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. times two

First, why the scepticism? This is one deal that you can really benefit from! Trust me.
Seriously, if I offer you what I think I'm going to offer you, you will really regret not accepting. You all in general, but you, Drac, in particular. Though I'm not sure what I'll ask for in return...

And secondly, come on, I went from mindless bigot to cool, calculating asshole. You don't think that I can make another change?

Defensive plan looks good. If Milsha still had her rage, we could use that to pay, but OH WELL.
Yeah, pay for the people who're worth protecting. Get some water pokemon out. Use a few buffs. Prepare.

[Bard The 5th LW]

Not necessarily taking a side hewre, but if we were a manga/anime, I bet Impact and Pierce would have fan-girls that battled to the death.

Seriously, those fanbases would be more violent than Drac and Gem

[DanteFalcon]

Or you know Matt is just a paranoid bastard who trusts almost no one.

[Dracorion]

Originally Posted by Geminex

Ok, about the flanderization? That was distillation. I mean come on, are you saying that Renny wouldn't credit the victory to a) relationships between team members (trust, respect, and, most importantly, love?) b) friendship between trainers and pokemon?

Honestly? I'd rather put up with that than Impact going on and on about how he and his genius led us to victory and we'd be screwed without him.

And don't even think about posting the response I know you're thinking. Seriously, don't.

Originally Posted by Geminex

Secondly, don't try to tell me about Erfworld. I am Parson. Or, well, actually, not really. What Parson does isn't reeeeally that much Strategy. It's much more thinking outside the box. Finding new ways of applying Erfworld's rules. Getting around certain restrictions. The volcano thing? That wasn't strategy. That was bullshit. Albeit highly successful bullshit.

Well to be fair, there's so many low-hanging fruit no one's exploited in Erfworld that Parson doesn't really need to do strategy yet.

Originally Posted by Geminex

And honestly? Ruin types easier than normal trainers? You're kidding. Seriously, what is your point here supposed to be? Renny didn't know which types were gonna be deployed next? Considering that switching pokemon is a free action, and you have enough pokemon that you'll usually have a good mix of types on the field at any time, that really doesn't in any way contribute to difficulty. At all. It's different, but it's in no way easier. Particularly since, power-wise, Ruin types blow non-ruin types out of the fucking water. AB did a good job at balancing the encounters, I think. And even if that weren't the case, in this mission so far, Impact has been way beyond Renny in terms of leadership skill.

And if Renny were to lead for another mission then the scores would end up tied again!

Come on, man.

Also, I think Menarker's point is that he's mostly had to deal with diverse type combinations, rather than Ruin pokemon that you pretty much just throw Dragon attacks at until they die.

Originally Posted by Geminex

And I'm not saying that Impact doesn't adapt. I'm saying that he doesn't rely on it, and when he plans ahead, he does plan for contingencies.

Eh, who doesn't?

Originally Posted by Geminex

See, I think everything has to be defined in terms of 'success'. A virtue (or, let's say, 'positive quality') is something that makes success more likely. Caring for civillians? Very ethical, very upstanding, but hardly improves our chances of success. In fact, depending on how much Pierce lets his care for the defenceless influence him, it might even be detrimental!

What about "success while upholding the virtues we're supposed to stand for" or "success without sinking as low as the fuckers were fighting"?

Pierce gets the job done, and he saves puppies while doing it.

Originally Posted by Geminex

Whereas ruthlessness is the willingness to make sacrifices in pursuit of success, even if these sacrifices aren't moral, or socially acceptable. Considering the importance of the goal, it's probably going to be necessary to make a great many sacrifices. And it is going to be worth having made those sacrifices, even if it might not be very moral to do what Impact's gonna do.

[sarcasm]For the greater good, right?[/sarcasm]

Originally Posted by Geminex

Hell, you should be glad I'm offering up Impact to take on that burden. Or would either of you like to see your character have to choose between saving mankind or sacrificing their (pokemon team/close relatives/some other thing)?

I would, I totally would.

Pierce wouldn't, but I would.

Originally Posted by Geminex

Whelp. Evil, it's what I do. And Impact does too. Though, like I said, later, he'll be less threatening. Less sinister. So much more... enlightened. And less talk of cleansing, it's too Third Reich. Now there's a hole I don't want to fall into.
And also, Pierce can be useful when he's alive! If he dies through me (while that's hardly likely) it'll be primarily through your dare.

Bah, you're keeping secrets and hiding plans.

Originally Posted by Geminex

Right here, right now, 'leader' is supposed to be 'the guy whose commanding will make success most likely'. And well, yeah, trust makes manipulation easier. But except for 'he's, like, totally creepy', there isn't any reason not to trust Impact. I mean, seriously. What counts more: A strange mode of speech and a few vague hints he might not like pokemon (AND OH MAN WHAT A CRIME THAT WOULD BE), or the fact that he's in charge, and will have been in charge, without screwing anyone over at all? Unless, I mean, everyone character in this RP is either massively superficial or acting on OOC knowlege?

See my thoughts on "success" above.

Also, you keep purposefully undermining Impact's creepiness, not to mention general assholeishness, unappreciation of his teammates and the fact that he's probably hiding an agenda.

Originally Posted by Geminex

First, why the scepticism? This is one deal that you can really benefit from! Trust me.
Seriously, if I offer you what I think I'm going to offer you, you will really regret not accepting. You all in general, but you, Drac, in particular. Though I'm not sure what I'll ask for in return...

Keeping secrets and hiding plans.

I'm taking all of this with a fat grain of salt until you come clean.

And then I'm going to peer at it under a microscope while testing it for STDs.

Originally Posted by Geminex

And secondly, come on, I went from mindless bigot to cool, calculating asshole. You don't think that I can make another change?

Fat grain of salt.

Originally Posted by BardTheFifthLightWarrior

Not necessarily taking a side hewre, but if we were a manga/anime, I bet Impact and Pierce would have fan-girls that battled to the death.

Seriously, those fanbases would be more violent than Drac and Gem

OH GOD THIS.

WE NEED TO DO THIS SOMEHOW.

EDIT: Oh God, I take it back. I just realized what's so wrong about this.

We'd be Team Edward and Team Jacob.

[Bard The 5th LW]

EDIT: Oh God, I take it back. I just realized what's so wrong about this.

We'd be Team Edward and Team Jacob.

I was going to make that comparison in the post, but I felt it would be better if the horror dawned upon you by itself.

[Dracorion]

GTFO my Bella Chizuru, motherfucker!

You're asexual anyway!

[Menarker]

Originally Posted by Geminex

Ok, about the flanderization? That was distillation. I mean come on, are you saying that Renny wouldn't credit the victory to a) relationships between team members (trust, respect, and, most importantly, love?) b) friendship between trainers and pokemon?

You basically took one aspect about him and made that the only point worth focusing on. Effectively flanderization. >_> He wouldn't go as far as you put it, because that's personal traits and motivations which not all the members share. Some of the characters on the team like Charlotte and Harriette are pretty blood-thirsty or at least not that friendly such as Matthias. He would credit it to the individual skills and talents of each of the members and that fact that they all gathered together to fight a common foe regardless of how or why they joined, which is something to be admired.

AB did a good job at balancing the encounters, I think. And even if that weren't the case, in this mission so far, Impact has been way beyond Renny in terms of leadership skill.

Firstly, Drac was on the dot regarding my point on me thinking you had it easier because you only have to peg ruin types with dragons types mostly.
Anyhow...
"In This Mission", Renny has not been ATTEMPTING to be a leader, more denigned to give advice since Impact is the designated leader as per Rayleen. It's easy to claim that Impact is showing to be more of a leader in THIS mission when Renny isn't trying to give him a run for his money. Renny however has still performed his duty of looking over his team-mates and not losing his head or getting distracted by the urge to taunt or stuff like that.

Renny commanding Impact will... hopefully not happen. Like, seriously. It would be very bad for all involved. I won't say 'over my dead body', but I'm thinking it pretty hard.

In either of the two previous missions that Renny was leader, Renny's leadership had not caused any trouble during combat. With Impact leading this mission, Renny has been pretty generally supportive/accepting of Impact's given leadership status. Thus Renny's presence is not a problem. Thus the only way that Renny's leadership can go bad when Impact is on board is if Impact was to be a sore loser or attempt to sabotage Renny openly, and if that becomes the case, everyone will know Impact to be a two-faced grunt who can only bark orders but cannot take orders from those designated as his higher-up. Which would not look good for him if Renny has an established sense of trust from his team-mates in regards to his behavior, his skills or his leadership.

Right here, right now, 'leader' is supposed to be 'the guy whose commanding will make success most likely'. And well, yeah, trust makes manipulation easier. *And other stuff in previous posts regarding malipulation or such.*

I do agree that so far, you seem to be undermining Impact's behavior such as threat of force or Kurika thing or trying to get Renny/Pierce to shut up about "backtalk" when Rayleen designated them as Impact's advisors. The hands to his head if we wanted to go metaphorically.

One of the things that interests me out of character is how you talk about malipulation and how Impact is like the ultimate in it, and how he'll shape people's influences through victory and that sort of thing, proving that he is better than everyone else at being the leader...

If that is really and truly the case, why have Impact attempt to have Mind Control?

If he really truly believed that his malpulations to bring people to respect him is valuable, doesn't the fact that you plan that ability for him means that you don't actually truly believe that malipulation but sheer outright control is the way to go? Taking the easy way out because you/Impact may not actually believe malipulation can suceed over hard-earned friendship and trust in the long run? ^,^ (Of course, it's possible that Impact just becomes evilly impatient and fed up with the individual members of PATCA, believing they are the ones holding victory back with their particular traits).

Just another crazy conjecture from me. ^^