A conversation about conversations about bigotry

[Solid Snake]

To Pip, while I'm at it:

First, Malcolm X was a far better activist, and in my opinion also a more respectable human being, than Martin Luther King, Jr. Privileged whites just write the history books, and MLK Jr. took a more 'agreeable' tone than Malcolm X did, hence MLK was the one immortalized.

But Malcolm X was all kinds of badass, yo.

Second:

Originally Posted by Pip Boy

[font=courier new][color=#00EE22]I think we've lost something valuable in all the discussion of this, which is the spirit behind it to begin with. There have been loads of people arguing about whether its okay to be extremely rude and disrespectful to people you've been calling biggoted, but ignorance is a two-way street.

I see my arguments as less favoring people being 'extremely rude and disrespectful,' and more defining which side is really being more rude and disrespectful than the other.

Like, so far, the extent of Liz's negative contributions can basically be summarized as a few moments where she made unnecessary snide commentary. The rest was basically just Liz A: being substantively right on most of the issues, B: preferring to educate you on the substantive issues by whatever means necessary as opposed to a preference to remain 'on good terms' with you as a friend, C: being increasingly frustrated with the dismissive insults she received upon being substantively right on the issues, D: responding harshly at times to make her points, but usually only directly in response to flippant, hostile, ignorant and downright offensive comments made by others, and E: receiving a disproportionate torrent of shit from hordes of the privileged who took personal offense upon being told that existence wasn't sunshine and rainbows for others who lacked the innate advantages they enjoyed.

Say what you will about Liz's tactics, in the end you learn something from the experience of being chewed out (as I and countless others have before me have), and perhaps you learn the lessons more quickly than you would if Liz tried to be 'civil,' and I think that's all Liz gives two cents about, and I think that's all oppressed minorities should give two cents about in the context of dealing with ignorant privileged people who refuse to acknowledge the harrowing obstacles those minority groups face and who'd prefer to continue to oppress them, whether through active malice or through silent passivity.

By contrast, the contributions of Liz's critics is basically:

A: Being substantively wrong on most (if not all; certainly, as a fallible person, Liz has been wrong) of the issues;
B: Interjecting Liz into every conversation about privilege as a way to demonize her, demonize others who support her positions, and unnecessarily antagonize the conversation.
C: Upon unnecssarily antagonizing the conversation by demonizing Liz, on occasion before Liz has even entered the conversation herself, then blaming Liz for reacting appropriately to said insults by refusing to take that crap and sticking up for herself. Liz then gets in trouble for appropriately expecting the Mods to take action?

Yes, Liz can be a bit snarky and I'm sure Liz -- like all of us -- has crossed lines and yes, I'm sure there are circumstances in which Liz was justifiably banned for breaking the rules and overreacting.

But I'm sick of y'all using past examples of past precedent as something of a crutch to escape liability for their bigoted statements. If you say something stupid that's offensive, and you're called out on it, you shouldn't be able to rest on the laurels of manufactured hostility and overreact with "You're right I'm an over-entitled jerk who's accomplished nothing of benefit to society I'll leave the forum now because I can't speak my mind because you all hate me" or shit like that.

That kind of personal overreaction derails the conversation to your benefit; instead of acknowledging the objective flaws of your position, you're trying to hide under an overblown attack on your personal integrity where none was made. By doing so, the conversation inevitably becomes more hostile because you've just transformed a conversation about minority rights into a conversation about how we should all pity you, a member of the privileged majority regarding the substantive issue of real discrimination we were discussing, just because your precious feelings were hurt on an internet webforum, and that's somehow more important to you than the substantive issues of real consequence being discussed.
* I speak from personal experience as I did exactly this about a week ago on Sexay and rightfully received loads of criticism for it. We're not even talking ancient history, this was a recent event.

And, think about it from the perspective of any other advocate for the rights of the minority being discussed. What could possibly be more offensive to the progressive notion that women, homosexuals, transsexuals and ethnic minorities deserve equal opportunities with their heterosexual, white, male counterparts than having a legitimate conversation on said topics disrupted because the feelings of a (probably) white, (probably) male, (probably) heterosexual person have been offended?
(Yes, I know, I've stereotyped NPF.)

I can almost understand where the frustration on Liz's part originates: Her goal to educate and inform in her threads about, say, Boycotting Atlus have been usurped because now she has to worry about babysitting the feelings of the privileged, lest her anger at their ignorance offend them.

Remember what I said earlier about how we shouldn't have to preface our criticisms of your speech with disclaimers reminding you that we think you're a decent person and not in fact a shitstain and that we're responding to what you're typing and not who you are, as a human being? That bears repeating, here. We can't have serious conversations about serious subjects of this order of magnitude without it being implicitly understood that hostile commentary is in response to the position being taken, and NOT the person taking said positions.
* From personal experience, I can say that I don't really think Liz takes these vitriolic disagreements as personally as you might imagine based on the language employed, at least in the sense that I've had extremely bitter disagreements with Liz before, only for Liz and I to end up joking and laughing about videogames and animes and new Korean music videos mere days later.

[Nique]

Pip, I think it would be great if you didn't appropriate the rhetoric of being abused as if the way you're treated here is equal to those groups of people who are actually abused in society at large, or of the philosophies behind civil rights leaders who may have subscribed to a spirit of peace and forgiveness but were still pretty much known for calling out serious issues in what many people of the time considered a "rude" way.

This is not a popularity contest or about Liz winning or anything like that, and you aren't being treated unfairly. You said something that was offensive. It's great that you didn't mean for it to be offensive. So instead of being mad that the problematic thing you said but didn't mean offended people, just say "I'm sorry I said we should mistreat crazy people, I'll try to be more sensitive to that kind of thing in the future" and move on.

Originally Posted by Snake

Remember what I said earlier about how we shouldn't have to preface our criticisms of your speech with disclaimers reminding you that we think you're a decent person and not in fact a shitstain and that we're responding to what you're typing and not who you are, as a human being? That bears repeating, here. We can't have serious conversations about serious subjects of this order of magnitude without it being implicitly understood that hostile commentary is in response to the position being taken, and NOT the person taking said positions.
* From personal experience, I can say that I don't really think Liz takes these vitriolic disagreements as personally as you might imagine based on the language employed, at least in the sense that I've had extremely bitter disagreements with Liz before, only for Liz and I to end up joking and laughing about videogames and animes and new Korean music videos mere days later.

Also this /\ - No one hates you dude, so chill out.

[Bells]

Kinda hard to go that route since he was banned again for his previous post guys...

[pochercoaster]

I read through this thread and nothing about Liz's posts really struck me as dickish. I get the sense that people just get really uncomfortable when legitimate arguments such as the ones Liz writes start to pile up in front of them.

You know what? It's really easy to look like an asshole when you're pointing out prejudice, because being cognizant of prejudice is not the status quo. Conversely, it's a lot easier to go with the status quo and not look like an asshole specifically because it's the status quo. Liz is called an asshole because what she says offends people. It doesn't offend them because what she says is offensive, it offends them because thinking about groups outside of their own privilege is not something they're used to and one reaction to that is hostility. Fear of the unknown, fear that one might've said or done something prejudiced in the past. It makes one uncomfortable with one's identity.

But is the mark of maturity not the willingness to confront one's own preconceived notions of oneself and the world at large?

Also, was I not the only one offended by this?

Originally Posted by Pip Boy

Despite this it seems that I find myself unable to post on this forum without being targetted by a virtual bukakke of "you're a feminist, racist, ableist, oppressive, biggoted idiot fuck" usually started by Liz and then joined by 1d4+1 goblins.

Seriously, bringing up bukkake as a comparison to people pointing out prejudice? Does this strike anyone else as hella misogynistic? Why do I have to read this bullshit? I almost went ahead and made a post about it before Liz did.

Or how about the rape jokes that were thrown around on NPF chat before? (Which I asked a few people to stop doing, and they have very kindly complied and apologized, like mature adults should. Dunno if it still happens since I don't go on to NPF chat anymore.) Or like... any other number of posts with misogynistic tones that I might dig up later. Like Liz being called "babe."

It's not that y'all are bad people, it's that if someone points out that something you said is prejudiced they are actually doing you a favour. You should think about what they said and apologize. And then strive to not say it again. It's that easy. And, fortunately, a number of members here DO listen. The ones who don't want to, though, and start a shit storm over it need to grow up. Not everyone on here is a cis white dude.

And LIZ IS NOT THE ONLY ONE WHO SEES THIS SHIT GOING ON IN HERE. Seriously.

[Solid Snake]

Originally Posted by Bells

Kinda hard to go that route since he was banned again for his previous post guys...

Ah. He was?
If so, I missed that.
Hope he still reads the text from Nique and I, though.
EDIT: And Poch.

EDIT 2: In addition to Poch's critique, I also feel that Pip directly comparing me to a goblin is offensive to goblins.
How dare you insinuate every noble goblin types odious Walls of Text!

[Fenris]

He was banned for calling me a prick for not banning him via PMs.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Originally Posted by Solid Snake

EDIT 2: In addition to Poch's critique, I also feel that Pip directly comparing me to a goblin is offensive to goblins.
How dare you insinuate every noble goblin types odious Walls of Text!

But goblins are all illiterate

[Solid Snake]

And by virtue of their illiteracy, they already possess far more integrity than anyone who posts here!!

[Amake]

Can I just say I'm really happy about all the well spoken knowledgeable compassionate people who have spoken in this thread. Snake, poch, Liz, you're the best, but there's more people deserving of merit here than I can keep track of. It's a pleasure to read this thread and it'll probably go down in history as a teachable moment.

Thank you and goodnight.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Originally Posted by Solid Snake

And by virtue of their illiteracy, they already possess far more integrity than anyone who posts here!!

Pfft, I've never seen no stinking goblin join us on the picket line.