A conversation about conversations about bigotry

[pochercoaster]

I want to emphasize something here. I highly, highly doubt Liz or anyone else who's into these kinds of topics thinks they are completely free of prejudice, because as humans that's pretty much impossible. As such, if someone points out something that I said as prejudiced or offensive, I actually consider it a gesture of respect, because they thought that they could challenge my perspective with the potential for something good to come out of it. There are certain people (not referring to anyone on this board, mind) who are so set in their ways and views that there's nothing to be done about them, and really all you can do is ignore them. I believe the majority of NPFers are NOT these people. However, if we all try to be informative to each other, that it a great benefit to us all.

Many members here have had their views shaped by NPF for the better. Why don't we try to keep that going? Having your views challenged is pretty much always going to feel somewhat offensive, but it is not because the other person is seeking to offend. Pain is part of life, but the pain from changing one's perspective is not insurmountable nor a bad thing. It is quite healthy, in fact.

[shiney]

Thank you all for the pleasant discourse.

For my part of it, I find it also offensive to have someone, who is defending themselves versus someone saying offensive things, then proceeds to be abjectly offensive in response, and then takes the assumption that because they are correct this is argument enough to justify said behavior. Others have, will disagree with me - it is a noble pursuit, to defend to the absolute teeth that which you strongly hold dear, a society free of prejudice, of bigotry, and of hate. This goal is a difficult one, and often requires a nuanced approach. In this forum, a no-holds-barred scorched earth approach toward enlightening members as to the folly of their ways does not stand.

This is the crux of the decision I made to step back, which I still intend to do, but I feel like I should address it once more before I go on hiatus. I felt that once we had reached the point where members were quitting, and specifically stating the members who were the cause of that decision, and other members were saying in so many words "don't let the door hit you on the way out" suggested that the shark has been jumped. We should not applaud someone's decision to go, or encourage them to get lost. That in itself is hatred, is bigotry; it is a simple matter to say "they enable hatred with their jokes! They empower bigotry by making light of issues that are extremely serious". This is true. The response should not be to insult them, belittle, demean, run them out of town, and make sure they know they are not wanted or welcome. The response should never be one of forced exclusion. That's the very, very thing people are fighting against while simultaneously engaging in the same practice.

You don't put out a fire by setting another bigger fire. Similarly, you don't heal the wounds caused by hatred and division by intentionally creating hatred and division. That's the real way to empower bigotry, in my opinion. It gives them the most perfect strawman excuse to say "You are the same as me".

You aren't. But, your actions don't prove it.

Thanks everyone and I will lurk, but for right now, I don't think I can be around when yet another big wound is festering in this forum and I can't resist the urge to pick at the scab. To side with wanting to include everyone unfortunately puts me in the position of being accused of defending bigotry, and I at least am man enough that, instead of fighting tooth and nail and causing a bigger problem, I can simply walk away.

Time is on our side.

[Gregness]

Against my better judgment, here goes.

The thing that gets me about Liz is that whenever one of these things blows up (as they seem to every six weeks or so) is that it seems like there's no way for me (as a white heterosexual man) to be a part of the conversation. If I'm in support of the thing she's against, she's pissed that I'm a horrible hitler/stalin crossbreed singlehandedly turning the world into a living hell. If I agree with her, then she's bitter about all my privelege and how dare I when I don't fucking know.

I'm not saying that this is what's actually happening, just that that's how it comes across to me and why I've steered clear of her last few threads.

I'm all ears if someone has some suggestions for how to deal with that.

As an aside, I know cracked isn't exactly a beacon of cultural work, but I think there's some relevant stuff here.

[Professor Smarmiarty]

Do what I do and be bankrupt and homeless. It's top trumps.

[Solid Snake]

Originally Posted by shiney

Thank you all for the pleasant discourse.

I'm hoping you're not being sarcastic.

In this forum, a no-holds-barred scorched earth approach toward enlightening members as to the folly of their ways does not stand.

Fair enough. This is, of course, your forum. And I imagine that Sexay's creation is the foreseeable consequence of your position being taken to its logical conclusion, insofar as it would be disproportionately applied to prevent proponents of minority rights (and the opponents of privilege) from speaking out against ignorance and injustice.

But I will continue to strongly disagree with your contention that the approach of anyone here -- whether Liz, or Pocheros, or myself or anyone else -- in responding aggressively has been 'no-holds-barred scorched earth.' That simply isn't true. As applied to Liz, it's a mischaracterization that's popular largely due to its repeated assertion by Liz's opponents, as opposed to any recent behavior by Liz herself.

I felt that once we had reached the point where members were quitting, and specifically stating the members who were the cause of that decision, and other members were saying in so many words "don't let the door hit you on the way out" suggested that the shark has been jumped.

Where you see an injustice afflicted upon those exiting, I see an injustice afflicted upon someone (in this case, Liz) for daring to speak her mind.

People shouldn't be able to escape liability for their inappropriate statements or sentiments by throwing up a fuss about leaving. And, as I've said before and will say again, there are many more appropriate and mature ways to actually leave the forum, should one feel it's necessary to do so, that do not involve publicly attempting to demonize anyone. There are, furthermore, ways to question the authenticity of the actions of someone like Liz that do not involve this degree of public condemnation merely for standing upon principles against privilege -- one can approach the Mods, flag posts deemed inappropriate for moderation, privately initiate dialogue with the presumed aggressor, etc.

In the case of many of these individuals who are leaving NPF, initially, people like Liz (and others; let's not pretend it's 'just' Liz, Pip also mentioned the legion of 'Goblins' who 'assist' her, which I presume includes individuals like Pocheros and maybe, if I'm optimistic about the company I keep, myself) were being completely rational and calm in their criticisms of others' ignorant positions. In most cases -- not all, but most recent debates -- the parties aggressively attacking ignorance have started in a relatively appropriate demeanor and only been pushed 'over the edge' after repeated belittling of their positions.

I could quote specific examples if you wish, but off the top of my head, the "Square Enix racist Tech Demo" and the "Boycott Atlus" threads immediately jump to mind as examples of this phenomenon.

We should not applaud someone's decision to go, or encourage them to get lost. That in itself is hatred, is bigotry;

Hatred, maybe. I'd respectfully disagree with the assertion that I (or most others here) are 'applauding' a decision to leave, and I'd disagree that even the most vitriolic responses are truly motivated out of hatred of the person; hatred of the principle that person is espousing may be in play, but that's a very different beast.

Bigotry? No. I don't think bigotry is an appropriate word to use in this context.

[shiney]

The spirit, if not the legal definition of the word.

I'm hoping you're not being sarcastic.

It was said in earnest.

I'm not going to argue your post Snake because you make excellent points. It's what you do. Unfortunately it has little bearing or impact on what I have witnessed or how I feel about the situation. Please continue debating in the way you do because you do a good job at arguing and discussing topics on their merits, and trying to leave the emotional components to the side.

[Solid Snake]

Originally Posted by Gregness

Against my better judgment, here goes.

The thing that gets me about Liz is that whenever one of these things blows up (as they seem to every six weeks or so) is that it seems like there's no way for me (as a white heterosexual man) to be a part of the conversation.

Last I checked, I'm a white heterosexual male.
Last I checked, I haven't been categorically excluded from these conversations.

Occasionally, as a consequence of my privilege I've been at greater risk of being just plain ignorant and subsequently wrong in some specific assertions I've made. I've looked foolish, I've stewed for a little while, I've felt guilty and embarrassed over my errors, and I've recovered after a few days of contemplation to continue to participate and learn.

There's no rule against white heterosexual men learning more about what institutional privilege is and how they've benefited from it and why it's an issue that demands fixing. There are certain elements or facets of conduct, insofar as the beneficiaries of privilege are more at risk of saying or thinking things they shouldn't, and so it's worth reading a few blog posts and websites as a preliminary measure to educate oneself on the basics. There's still more that I need to read, and there's certainly more I need to learn.

But it's an ongoing evolution, and either you dive in and subject yourself to the long, meandering process of becoming a better person, or you stonewall because of some perceived, imaginary injustice against one's own honor or credibility, and you remain ignorant and uninformed.

/my opinion, not anyone else's, not necessarily fact, don't take this as the default position of minority rights groups

[Ryong]

I have to agree with Gregness. The whole thread about boycotting Atlus was basically "you are all complete perverts who fuel the terrible thing that is heterosexual male gaze" over and over.

It shouldn't be such a common thing, having people agree with your general point while doing your best to be caustic towards them. I recall a particular event on the chat where some, well, rather softcore gay picture was posted and, when a few people said "okay then" or that they were disabling images, Liz flipped off on everyone because she's, and this is a near quote, forced to deal with getting het porn thrown at her everywhere and then insulting people who were telling her that no, they haven't randomly posted porn and they also aren't exactly fans of the whole thing.

Yes, these are things in the past, but given that such things keep happening, I feel like it's adequate to bring it up as it doesn't seen like much has changed. It seems like the forum, as a whole, is prone to discussion and insult slinging whenever anything happens. I am not pointing fingers at anyone, as I too have done things I shouldn't have.

I also have to agree with Shiney's "you don't heal the wounds caused by hatred and division by intentionally creating hatred and division". For example, I am not entirely sure how the idea of making another forum to bitch at people from the original is supposed to work.

Unfortunately, I lack the eloquence to explain my feelings more thoroughly on this matter. Safe to say, I'll be trying my best to not be an ass to anyone.

[POS Industries]

Originally Posted by Ryong

The whole thread about boycotting Atlus was basically "you are all complete perverts who fuel the terrible thing that is heterosexual male gaze" over and over.

That's a very unique interpretation of those events that don't actually seem to be at all based in reality.

I recall a particular event on the chat where some, well, rather softcore gay picture was posted and, when a few people said "okay then" or that they were disabling images, Liz flipped off on everyone because she's, and this is a near quote, forced to deal with getting het porn thrown at her everywhere and then insulting people who were telling her that no, they haven't randomly posted porn and they also aren't exactly fans of the whole thing.

And while it's entirely possible Liz did not react well in this situation, I don't think the events proceeded in the psychotically jarring manner that you are attempting to pass off as historically accurate.

I also have to agree with Shiney's "you don't heal the wounds caused by hatred and division by intentionally creating hatred and division". For example, I am not entirely sure how the idea of making another forum to bitch at people from the original is supposed to work.

Because that's entirely what SP is about. Yes.

Safe to say, I'll be trying my best to not be an ass to anyone.

Ace job so far, bro.

[Fenris]

Originally Posted by Ryong

For example, I am not entirely sure how the idea of making another forum to bitch at people from the original is supposed to work.

If what I am to understand about the purpose of said other forum is correct, it was basically started by some members who simply wanted a place where they could post as they wished with other posters that they liked, without posters that they did not like present. It was certainly never intended to be a place to bitch about people here. If fifth wanted a place to bitch about people here, he would have started an IRC channel, not a forum, and also he would have been like fucking 15 instead of the grown and respectable human being that we all know that he is.

Also hoo boy you totally missed the ball on the Atlus thread. It was not about the continued perpetuation of the het male gaze, it was due to a history of Atlus being an absolutely fuckawful company in terms of trans rights and the perpetuation of horribly bigoted views regarding such characters.