GamerGate? Da fuq is a GamerGate?

[Kim]

Oh, so the Escapist also failed to disclose that one of the interviewees, James Desborough, had a project of his, Chronicles of Gor, backed by the dude who owns the Escapist. And that he seems to have known Desborough before then. Source: https://plus.google.com/u/0/+JamesGr...ts/TDDYucSzHDz

Now, this doesn't bother me, except to the extent that it flies in the face of the journalist ethics that GamerGate has so sincerely advocated. And since they're such sincere advocates, surely they're calling the Escapist out on this, right? You see, I don't go to 8chan or anything, but surely they're upset about this, and not just upset that the interview with the guy who forged stuff to accuse Anita of tax fraud* was removed, right?

Surely.

*Can't find exact source on this at the moment, but here's some other stuff about him.
https://twitter.com/TheQuinnspiracy/...82857313095682
https://twitter.com/TheQuinnspiracy/...82306370289665

---------- Post added at 09:24 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:09 AM ----------

Also, like, if you wanna see examples of all the awful shit GG and channers are constantly doing to harass and doxx people they dislike, literally just check out Zoe Quinn's twitter feed. She's got loads of screenshots.

[Red Mage Black]

Originally Posted by Kim

Is Sargon the guy who talked with Pixie and then shouted her down because he decided it wasn't a debate and she was outdebating him or is Sargon the guy who talked with Liana K and drove her to tears because he and his pals didn't like her criticizing Nero.

Like, that's not just me trying to be a prick I literally forget which he is, but I think??? he's the first one?

EDIT: Double-checked and yeah Sargon was the guy who shouted PixieJenni down and the dude who was shitty to Liana K in a stream was KingofPol I think

EDIT2: The funniest part was how Liana K ending up in tears was proof that she was too emotional but Sargon shouting a woman down apparently wasn't proof he was too emotional. Strange that.

What a devil! Honestly, you guys using a shouting match? What about the other people I pointed out? Internet Aristocrat is a bit of a dick and so can Doctor Randomercam, but it honestly doesn't disprove the validity of any of the points they make. If that were true, half the thread and posts of you guys shouting at one another about misogyny and patriarchy would be invalidated by emotion if that were the case.

BUT since you pointed out the in question that I hadn't seen before, I'll check them out. I never said they were nice people though and I probably won't be surprised at what he does.

As for KingofPol, I can't say anything about him as I don't watch his videos.

However, I will also recommend you check out the other stuff I mentioned.

Originally Posted by rpgdemon

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/2..._harassers.php

Even if the article is legit, I refuse to touch clickbait sites without a little safety behind me.

After reading the article in question:
Yes, the comment made by the abuser was cause for alarm. However... without proper research, the writer also goes on to say:
"Wu attributed the threat directly to the online campaign #GamerGate, a group that categorizes itself as a “consumer advocacy” or a “consumer revolt” “movement,” though major tech blogs, mainstream media -- and more directly various #GamerGate chat logs -- have shown clear ties to organized harassment campaigns rooted in misogyny and sexism against women."

This right here folks is a correlation =/= causation fallacy and only seems like an appeal to emotion to back people further away from the actual goals of the people who are NOT harassing anyone and ignore anyone who might actually have evidence of corruption. The reason people are doubtful and call falseflag shit is because the writers never provide proof that the incident ever happened. I'd like to compare this to the "patriarchy theory" and "white cis male" fallacies that arguments by anyone who identifies as a heterosexual white cis male should not be listened to based on those grounds alone. (Unless you're a feminist of course...)

Stupid vitriol in the last couple sentences aside, I'm going to address a comment from the article as well since I'm sure a few of you have seen it by now:

Whilst I applaud the sentiment, the structure of GG actively grants these people a platform.

Whatever good intentions exist get mashed together with an aggressive minority that also self-identifies with the movement. I've seen a lot of hyperbolic rhetoric like calling people with differing views "enemies", and the echo-chamber of twitter makes it intensely susceptible to misinformation. The consequence is an environment that enables harassment (not even just by the minority's intention, but just by its presence), which tragically also gets targeted back at GG proponents.

Absolutely agree that the harassment must stop, then we can move on to discussing real issues, but my personal opinion is that GG as it currently exists might very well make that impossible.

This happens, with what some people fail to notice, with EVERY MOVEMENT EVER. You want to know who the MRAs and others who don't like the feminist movement are making fun of? Your loudmouthed, "all men are rapists" radical feminist counterparts and to mirror two things they said, "Whilst I applaud the sentiment, the structure of GG actively grants these people a platform."

Change GG to Feminism or MRA and it's the same deal.

Whatever good intentions exist get mashed together with an aggressive minority that also self-identifies with the movement. I've seen a lot of hyperbolic rhetoric like calling people with differing views "enemies", and the echo-chamber of twitter makes it intensely susceptible to misinformation. The consequence is an environment that enables harassment (not even just by the minority's intention, but just by its presence), which tragically also gets targeted back at GG proponents.

Same thing I stated for the first quote. Calling any of them "not feminists, not MRAs, not GGers," would be a "No True Scotsman" Fallacy and it's pathetic to watch that neither movement will dismiss it's more hatred filled branch. They are not just the "minorities" they are the vocal majority that the media sensationalizes.

Originally Posted by Marc v4.0

A wonderful post from the blog of John Walker, UK co-editor and co-director of Rock, Paper, Shotgun

http://botherer.org/2014/10/12/a-thing-about-gamergate/

There are enough comments at the bottom making an argument for me, I can't even point them out without hitting the character limit.

Originally Posted by Kim

Oh, so the Escapist also failed to disclose that one of the interviewees, James Desborough, had a project of his, Chronicles of Gor, backed by the dude who owns the Escapist. And that he seems to have known Desborough before then. Source: https://plus.google.com/u/0/+JamesGr...ts/TDDYucSzHDz

Now, this doesn't bother me, except to the extent that it flies in the face of the journalist ethics that GamerGate has so sincerely advocated. And since they're such sincere advocates, surely they're calling the Escapist out on this, right? You see, I don't go to 8chan or anything, but surely they're upset about this, and not just upset that the interview with the guy who forged stuff to accuse Anita of tax fraud* was removed, right?

Surely.

*Can't find exact source on this at the moment, but here's some other stuff about him.
https://twitter.com/TheQuinnspiracy/...82857313095682
https://twitter.com/TheQuinnspiracy/...82306370289665

---------- Post added at 09:24 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:09 AM ----------

Also, like, if you wanna see examples of all the awful shit GG and channers are constantly doing to harass and doxx people they dislike, literally just check out Zoe Quinn's twitter feed. She's got loads of screenshots.

Just one question: Do you generalize everyone who agrees with the ethical side of the movement and put them all in the same circle? I've already pointed out above that you could change GG into any of the other movements and anyone saying they should 'change their moniker' or disassociate themselves from them would be just as valid.

But no, I'm not going to look at anything Zoe Quinn has to say. On Tumblr or Twitter. As I said before, she's a liar and a hypocrite and it's pathetic that anyone actually believes the snake oil she's saying. So yes, I will avoid the links.

[Amake]

So, I guess the important thing is to identify the handful of voices for gamergate who have anything useful to say and make sure they're heard over the thousands upon thousands who don't. While those thousands keep harassing people.

[Kim]

Originally Posted by Red Mage Black

But no, I'm not going to look at anything Zoe Quinn has to say. On Tumblr or Twitter. As I said before, she's a liar and a hypocrite and it's pathetic that anyone actually believes the snake oil she's saying. So yes, I will avoid the links.

I'm gonna admit I'm a little annoyed at this. You get on our cases about not checking out your links. You complain that nobody is providing any proof. And then you do the exact same based entirely on the fact that you hate Zoe Quinn so fucking much that you can't even be bothered to look at screenshots she's shared. It must be pretty easy to hate her when you absolutely refuse to look at anything she's said outside of the screenshots 8chan gives you.

I think I'm gonna try and bow out from this thread. It's not going anywhere. It's never going to go anywhere. Between being told to fuck off and RMB complaining we don't provide evidence or read his links, then dismissing Gamasutra as a "clickbait" site and refusing to look at screenshots cuz Zoe posted them... This thread isn't what I need in my life right now.

Have fun doing whatever.

[Red Mage Black]

Originally Posted by Amake

So, I guess the important thing is to identify the handful of voices for gamergate who have anything useful to say and make sure they're heard over the thousands upon thousands who don't. While those thousands keep harassing people.

So, you know the exact number, Amake? I still say the case is the same for any and all movements. Those who are part of one side will either dismiss or ignore their more extreme counterparts and only account for their people that actually help the cause and say that "this is the only true part of the movement."

So, how about identifying the entirety of the feminist movement that isn't male shaming just for men being men? Don't give me this whole "men need to turn everything about men", because it can be turned around exactly on feminism, "women needing to make everything about women." Why can't the good sides of the MRAs and Feminists actually form a good movement aside from JUST advocating for their own genders? What about... gasp the Egalitarian movement? Or... the Human Rights Movement? No, Feminism has nothing to do with Egalitarianism and you're not catching me with that one. A million and more radfems vehemently disagree with you already and they ARE part of the Feminist movement.

Originally Posted by Kim

I'm gonna admit I'm a little annoyed at this. You get on our cases about not checking out your links. You complain that nobody is providing any proof. And then you do the exact same based entirely on the fact that you hate Zoe Quinn so fucking much that you can't even be bothered to look at screenshots she's shared. It must be pretty easy to hate her when you absolutely refuse to look at anything she's said outside of the screenshots 8chan gives you.

I think I'm gonna try and bow out from this thread. It's not going anywhere. It's never going to go anywhere. Between being told to fuck off and RMB complaining we don't provide evidence or read his links, then dismissing Gamasutra as a "clickbait" site and refusing to look at screenshots cuz Zoe posted them... This thread isn't what I need in my life right now.

Have fun doing whatever.

I don't visit 8chan, for one. I was around when the GG first showed up and it WAS about rooting out corruption in VG journalism. There WERE some crying for blood, but there WERE professional voices in the crowd. I posted several links, Kim and even decided to namedrop people you might want to check out. Yet I refuse to click the link of someone I have seen the corruption and lies from and that's what causes you to ragequit the thread?

I thought I would have been the first one out of both of us. Wow.

Have fun doing whatever.

Okay, I will.

NPF doesn't need all this social justice warrior bullshit anyway. Just like it doesn't need political discussions. If you aren't on the "right" side, everyone dogpiles you.

[Amake]

Originally Posted by Red Mage Black

So, you know the exact number, Amake? I still say the case is the same for any and all movements. Those who are part of one side will either dismiss or ignore their more extreme counterparts and only account for their people that actually help the cause and say that "this is the only true part of the movement."

So, how about identifying the entirety of the feminist movement that isn't male shaming just for men being men? Don't give me this whole "men need to turn everything about men", because it can be turned around exactly on feminism, "women needing to make everything about women." Why can't the good sides of the MRAs and Feminists actually form a good movement aside from JUST advocating for their own genders? What about... gasp the Egalitarian movement? Or... the Human Rights Movement? No, Feminism has nothing to do with Egalitarianism and you're not catching me with that one. A million and more radfems vehemently disagree with you already and they ARE part of the Feminist movement.

Are you actually trying to say the number of people using the gamergate label to help anyone, in any way, outnumber the people using it to hurt people? I don't believe that for one second.

[pochercoaster]

I need men's rights because there's never been a male president

[rpgdemon]

Calling Gamasutra a clickbait site is laughable at best and if you honestly believe that, then you have no place in a discussion about the state of the gaming industry. If there is one site that is the heart of the gaming industry, designed specifically for those within the industry, it's Gamasutra.

[Solid Snake]

Originally Posted by Red Mage Black

NPF doesn't need all this social justice warrior bullshit anyway. Just like it doesn't need political discussions. If you aren't on the "right" side, everyone dogpiles you.

I have to confess that I was sincerely tempted to just quote this, type "Welcome to my Ignore List, RMB!", and then type a couple paragraphs about you being a Troll, quoting a few other sentences in which you're clearly looking to just insult folks and rile them up, and leaving it at that. Because, you know, I really do believe in calling a spade a spade.

But, let's assume for a moment -- just a moment, mind you -- that you are not in fact a troll, and that you are sincerely, if in the most utterly insulting and hamfisted way imaginable, attempting to advance an argument here.

If that were true, half the thread and posts of you guys shouting at one another about misogyny and patriarchy would be invalidated by emotion if that were the case.

This sentence was completely unnecessary in the context of attempting to suggest that the authors you quoted had relevant points that added to the discussion. Characterizing an opposing argument as "shouting at one another about misogyny and patriarchy" isn't exactly a conducive way to engage in level-headed debate, which makes me think you're not really interested in proving that GamerGate is a legitimate movement addressing a legitimate grievance in the industry, but that you're simply interested in insulting as many of us as you possibly can under the pretext of advancing logical arguments about GamerGate that you're not actually dedicating time or effort to advancing.

This right here folks is a correlation =/= causation fallacy and only seems like an appeal to emotion to back people further away from the actual goals of the people who are NOT harassing anyone and ignore anyone who might actually have evidence of corruption.

If you think there's some grand conspiracy among those you've dubbed 'social justice warriors' to prevent a rational dialogue about journalistic ethics and collusion in the gaming industry, then, fuck, I don't even know what to say to that.

Here's the thing: Most of the opposition to GamerGate is NOT opposed to a rational, sensible, level-headed discussion about the topic you're assuming that GamerGate is 'all about.' I mean, yes, there are specific defenses related to the specific behaviors of specific journalists and game developers implicated in GamerGate...which is only logical, because, among other things, there's no evidence whatsoever that Zoe Quinn committed any kind of ethical breach in trading sexual conduct for good reviews or any of that kind of shit. The problem with GamerGate isn't what GamerGate's few decent voices of sanity purport GamerGate is about, but rather, that GamerGate started as a direct attack on a specific individual and has continued attacks against women while pivoting to a generally agreeable purported goal as a cover but failing to actually address the vast majority of the broader issues implicated by its purported advocacy.

In other words, journalistic ethics and the integrity of the industry is a front. It's a cover. It's deception. The fact that it's deception doesn't necessarily entail that everyone is 'in on it', and in fact I'd bet a majority of those tweeting support of #GamerGate have bought into the lie. It's the same thing as social conservatives in America who genuinely deceive themselves into believing a broader, reconstructed narrative about the KKK in which the KKK is not a racist movement but about 'restoring pride in the south' or confronting social inequalities in impoverished predominantly white rural areas of the south. It's the same thing as tea party members who genuinely buy into the narrative that the tea party is about confronting Wall Street and Big Government to promote the Common Man when the reality of the matter is that every Tea Party member in an actual position of authority -- those who actually stand a chance of being elected to Congress as Republicans -- are actually advocating policies that will benefit Wall Street at the expense of their own supporters.

So, here's the reality of the matter: The GamerGaters who are actually doing more than just tweeting support of the concept of GamerGate are, in a vastly disproportionate way, targeting female developers in the gaming industry. And, yes, at one point or another you need to start looking at the actual, real-life, visible consequences of a movement as opposed to just claiming that the movement is perfectly embodied by an idealistic conceptualization articulated by a statement or an article. We don't judge President Obama on his campaign speeches; we judge him on his record in governance. We don't judge employees on lofty intentions; we judge them on their actual work product. If I say "You're my best friend, RMB!" and then I punch you in the stomach, you are probably going to view the punch as more indicative of my character than my statement.

And the fact of the matter is, the behavior of GamerGate at best suggests the movement is, well, exactly as Wu described it in that quote you referenced: A loosely tied together amalgamation of disparate individuals purporting to advocate for consumer advocacy, yet with clear and distinctive ties to misogynistic parties targeting women in organized harassment campaigns. There's not nearly enough outspoken condemnation of the harassment campaigns because to condemn the harassment campaigns is seen by many -- including yourself -- as an unnecessary sidetracking at best and as a destructive action that could neuter the movement at worst. In other words, publicly renowned GamerGaters don't want to confront the fact that they're wrong about specific aspects of Quinn's case because renouncing an attack on Quinn would damage the very pillars that fostered the movement in the first place.

Any responsible GamerGater would have, long ago, confessed that the Quinn story was ancillary and irrelevant and attempted to tackle the larger issue of AAA developers doing AAA developer things. Shadow of Mordor's team -- among a great many others -- should be receiving the vast majority of the bile. The fact that many GamerGaters have subsequently DEFENDED the very shady business practices executed by Shadow of Mordor to advertise its product on Youtube and allowed that story to be buried while the antagonism against Zoe Quinn and other women developers being DRIVEN OUT OF THE GODDAMN INDUSTRY BECAUSE THEY ARE WOMEN HOLY FUCK WHY DO I EVEN HAVE TO TYPE THIS is still festering and even growing online shows that GamerGate is, at best -- given the most glowing possible interpretation -- a movement that has slipped beyond the organizational control of leadership figures who could steer the ship back to the right direction. Rudderless, its own extremists have claimed the movement as their own and it's the extremists who are defining the movement's objectives. It's the Tea Party all over again.

I'd like to compare this to the "patriarchy theory" and "white cis male" fallacies that arguments by anyone who identifies as a heterosexual white cis male should not be listened to based on those grounds alone.

These are not logical fallacies, no one who ascribes to patriarchy or uses that terminology is claiming that white cis males "should not be listened to" universally and all subject matters based solely upon their gender or race, acknowledging the existence of privilege does not equate to a blind disregard of the privileged, and I have no fucking idea what the fuck you're on about, aside from a general guess that you're just irrationally angry at social justice advocates and painting them with a very wide brush.

This happens, with what some people fail to notice, with EVERY MOVEMENT EVER.

Sure! But in most cases, most movements have sufficient infrastructural capacity -- through leaders who define the conversation, through organizations who define the goals, through some sort of underlying framework that facilitates its advocates -- to crush the extremist voices who go beyond message. And this is something GamerGate desperately needs, if GamerGate was ever a serious movement at all, and I'm arguing it isn't, in large part based upon the evidence that it was a salacious story about a woman's sex life that sparked the movement in the first place, as opposed to a nearly-infinite number of far more prominent and objectively more awful controversies in the gaming industry.

At one point or another, you still have to answer why this began with Quinn, and you still need to answer exactly what in her ex-boyfriend's long-winded, inarticulate rants justifies your suspicion that Quinn herself even acted unethically or illegally so as to justify making her the centerpiece of a stand against the industry.

But no, I'm not going to look at anything Zoe Quinn has to say. On Tumblr or Twitter. As I said before, she's a liar and a hypocrite and it's pathetic that anyone actually believes the snake oil she's saying. So yes, I will avoid the links.

This is stupid.
Even assuming you're right and Quinn is a liar and a hypocrite and she's selling snake oil, saying you wouldn't look at anything she has to say is akin to a Republican saying they wouldn't read anything Obama has to say. If you're basing an entire movement on her presumed duplicity, you're sure as hell paying attention to her. If any Republican said the same about Obama or any Democrat said the same about someone like Karl Rove they'd be laughed out of their jobs. Understand your enemy and all that.

You see the irony here is, if you really did believe that Zoe Quinn was a liar and a hypocrite and selling snake oil, you'd DEFINITELY be paying attention to her. The fact that you're deliberately avoiding her content actually suggests that you're not even remotely concerned about the unethical behavior you're accusing her of. You're certainly not interested in proving yourself right, so why should any one of us take your claims seriously? Can you imagine a WaterGate reporter disavowing any need to read or research anything about Nixon? You're not concerned with her conduct because this isn't really about her conduct, it's just about demonizing her and women like her in the industry, and the one thing you don't need to properly research is a person's true character when the underlying goal of your efforts is to smear their character.

This is a witch hunt, not a genuine analysis of unethical industry practices.

Don't give me this whole "men need to turn everything about men", because it can be turned around exactly on feminism, "women needing to make everything about women."

You do not seem to understand what feminism is actually about or what the term actually means.

NPF doesn't need all this social justice warrior bullshit anyway.

Your own behavior sure as hell proves NPF does need some serious social justice warrior bullshit, amigo.

[Premmy]

Originally Posted by Solid Snake

In other words, journalistic ethics and the integrity of the industry is a front. It's a cover. It's deception. The fact that it's deception doesn't necessarily entail that everyone is 'in on it', and in fact I'd bet a majority of those tweeting support of #GamerGate have bought into the lie. It's the same thing as social conservatives in America who genuinely deceive themselves into believing a broader, reconstructed narrative about the KKK in which the KKK is not a racist movement but about 'restoring pride in the south' or confronting social inequalities in impoverished predominantly white rural areas of the south. It's the same thing as tea party members who genuinely buy into the narrative that the tea party is about confronting Wall Street and Big Government to promote the Common Man when the reality of the matter is that every Tea Party member in an actual position of authority -- those who actually stand a chance of being elected to Congress as Republicans -- are actually advocating policies that will benefit Wall Street at the expense of their own supporters.

This is the most important thing. Gamer Gate has proven itself very openly,elsewhere online and in this thread, to be A Social Conservative movement/organization. You want to be a Gamer Republican? well okay. Please stop pretending to be anything else, though.