A conversation about conversations about bigotry - Page 18

Ryong · 07-30-2012, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grimpond

Oh, and you seem to be dismissing and or ignoring the fact that the male gaze is a real thing and a big fuckin problem.

I am not dismissing male gaze as a problem and a real thing or anything like that. I am saying that it isn't something that applies to every single het male ever. I have never made any attempts at proving otherwise.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solid Snake

...
...*sigh*

Yes I misinterpreted a post.

How uncommon is that.

Krylo · 07-30-2012, 09:05 PM

Ryong, I say this in the most loving way possible, but put down the shovel, and come on out of that hole.

You can take my hand. I'll help.

Terex4 · 07-30-2012, 09:06 PM

I think my favorite part about a "conversation about bigotry" is how it boils down to "Liz is an ass." There are plenty of us who interact with Liz everyday without any problems whatsoever. There are plenty of us who have had differences with Liz and things smoothed over just fine.

I think its funny how no one seems to notice when anyone else posts something against bigotry, as if Liz is the only one who ever argues it. It seems as though its pointless for anyone to be involved except for Liz vs. Opposition and is a large part of the reason I rarely post. What's the point?

Hell, you guys act like those of us who support Liz are never ignorant of anyone else's issues. I had no idea why poch was offended over the bukkake comment, so I looked it up.

The fact of the matter is, this shit hurts, oftentimes deeply. In the Atlus thread, the common argument was "present more evidence." To understand at that moment that the fact people like myself being portrayed as tricksters and deviants was not enough. To know that the shit I deal with everyday wasn't significant enough to warrant so much as a second thought, much less support, really lets a person know their place in the world.

I'm not even going to pretend to speak for others who were impacted by the lack of support, not in the boycott, but in their social issues or walked away with a different message entirely. I speak for myself and myself alone.

Bells · 07-30-2012, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marc v4.0

It is kinda what happens in a debate/discussion when you disagree against something without providing a coherent base for the disagreement back up with evidence and examples that aren't logical fallacies and dismissive derailment tactics. Your point gets torn to complete shreds, and repeated attempts to pick up a mallet and force it don't endear your viewpoint to anyone.

You think that was the way people responding were acting, i thought that was the way the other side was talking.

Therefore myself and others became the Netherspawn of satan on earth...

Whoopedy-doo internet discussion...

Solid Snake · 07-30-2012, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Overcast

You type a wall or I will be forced to advise therapeutic action.

I typed a wall for you Overcast!!!! =)
But you'll have to scroll up to read it.

Grimpond · 07-30-2012, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryong

I am not dismissing male gaze as a problem and a real thing or anything like that. I am saying that it isn't something that applies to every single het male ever. I have never made any attempts at proving otherwise.

Yes I misinterpreted a post.

How uncommon is that.

so common that it seems to be, in fact, unintentionally intentional. Also, that thread wasn't about EVERY het male gaze for fucks sake. It's about the ones that cause problems, promote stereo and gendertypes, and now that I'm typing that, DOES seem to apply to most male gaze uses.

But for that threads sake it was about the bad ones, if such a differentiation can even be made about that.

so maybe stop trying to say it was something other than what it was.

Grimpond · 07-30-2012, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bells

You think that was the way people responding were acting, i thought that was the way the other side was talking.

Therefore myself and others became the Netherspawn of satan on earth...

Whoopedy-doo internet discussion...

It's not nice how you're trivializing it like it was no big thang.

Marc v4.0 · 07-30-2012, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terex4

The fact of the matter is, this shit hurts, oftentimes deeply. In the Atlus thread, the common argument was "present more evidence." To understand at that moment that the fact people like myself being portrayed as tricksters and deviants was not enough. To know that the shit I deal with everyday wasn't significant enough to warrant so much as a second thought, much less support, really lets a person know their place in the world.

I am posting this quote in response to every instance I see from now on of derailment, 'provide more evidence' and 'it doesn't offend me' I see in regards to bigotry.

Thank you, Terex

Nique · 07-30-2012, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bells

And some of us had trouble, or simply didn't fully understood or agreed with the extent of those reasons and explanations and were nearly castrated because of it.

Is everyone seriously not having a problem with people comparing acts of physical violence and abuse to someone getting mad at them on the internet in a discussion about groups who are often in a position of enduring those things?

I'm not saying a little hyperbole isn't ok every now and then but this is a problem because 1) It's a strawman fallacy pure and simple and 2) it appears to be escalating. What's next? Did Liz rape you with her meanness?

Krylo · 07-30-2012, 09:16 PM

Hey Grim, maybe like, take a step back and take a deep breath. Like, you seem to be getting a little angry, and lets try to keep this from drama bombing again.

Also, for everyone: Heterosexual Male Gaze (or Het Male Gaze, or more commonly Male Gaze) doesn't reference to the gaze of any actual heterosexual males.

What refers to is how the media panders to things that heterosexual males appreciate. See the 'butts and boob' poses that pretty much every female comic book character gets in nearly every shot they're in. That is to say that, regardless of how ridiculous it is, both the butt and boobs must be visible in any given shot of a woman.

That's just a super easy example, and one you can verify yourself.

For more examples this tumblr is pretty great for basic printed ones. Or do some outside research.

When someone says 'male gaze' or 'het male gaze' or whatever, they aren't talking about you staring at some lady's butt too long in the checkout line. In fact, I don't think anyone REALLY blames you if you do that now and then. I mean, you should try not to, but hormones, amirite?

What they are talking about is how nearly all the media we have stares at every woman's butt too long, or how women in television usually can't have a full conversation without talking about boys or how every 'strong female character' has to have rape as their backstory, or a million other terrible things.

It's important to be able to separate that from yourself. It's also important to realize that as heterosexual males it's even okay to like it when camera angles pan to your sexuality! No one is telling you that you can't! What they are saying is that you should be cognizant of why they're problematic and how much better our media would be if maybe women could talk about things other than boys for more than five minutes, or a strong female character could be strong because her parents died and she learned to be a ninja to avenge them instead of because she was raped and swore to become powerful so NEVER AGAIN, or nearly raped and the emotional trauma hardened her or whatever terrible thing.

That's all it means, and I trust we can all agree the world would be a better place if we didn't have it so pervasively in our media.

07-30-2012, 09:05 PM	#172
Krylo The Straightest Shota Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: It's a secret to everybody. Posts: 17,789	Ryong, I say this in the most loving way possible, but put down the shovel, and come on out of that hole. You can take my hand. I'll help. __________________ I am very tired.

07-30-2012, 09:16 PM	#180
Krylo The Straightest Shota Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: It's a secret to everybody. Posts: 17,789	Hey Grim, maybe like, take a step back and take a deep breath. Like, you seem to be getting a little angry, and lets try to keep this from drama bombing again. Also, for everyone: Heterosexual Male Gaze (or Het Male Gaze, or more commonly Male Gaze) doesn't reference to the gaze of any actual heterosexual males. What refers to is how the media panders to things that heterosexual males appreciate. See the 'butts and boob' poses that pretty much every female comic book character gets in nearly every shot they're in. That is to say that, regardless of how ridiculous it is, both the butt and boobs must be visible in any given shot of a woman. That's just a super easy example, and one you can verify yourself. For more examples this tumblr is pretty great for basic printed ones. Or do some outside research. When someone says 'male gaze' or 'het male gaze' or whatever, they aren't talking about you staring at some lady's butt too long in the checkout line. In fact, I don't think anyone REALLY blames you if you do that now and then. I mean, you should try not to, but hormones, amirite? What they are talking about is how nearly all the media we have stares at every woman's butt too long, or how women in television usually can't have a full conversation without talking about boys or how every 'strong female character' has to have rape as their backstory, or a million other terrible things. It's important to be able to separate that from yourself. It's also important to realize that as heterosexual males it's even okay to like it when camera angles pan to your sexuality! No one is telling you that you can't! What they are saying is that you should be cognizant of why they're problematic and how much better our media would be if maybe women could talk about things other than boys for more than five minutes, or a strong female character could be strong because her parents died and she learned to be a ninja to avenge them instead of because she was raped and swore to become powerful so NEVER AGAIN, or nearly raped and the emotional trauma hardened her or whatever terrible thing. That's all it means, and I trust we can all agree the world would be a better place if we didn't have it so pervasively in our media. __________________ I am very tired.