A conversation about conversations about bigotry

[Bells]

Originally Posted by Nique

Is everyone seriously not having a problem with people comparing acts of physical violence and abuse to someone getting mad at them on the internet in a discussion about groups who are often in a position of enduring those things?

I'm not saying a little hyperbole isn't ok every now and then but this is a problem because 1) It's a strawman fallacy pure and simple and 2) it appears to be escalating. What's next? Did Liz rape you with her meanness?

No, it was just because the conversation was about an entire subject, and yet that whole subject was focused on a single series of a single company posted in the Games subforum (so, not even a general discussion). to which, i, myself suggested that that might not be the best venue to talk about that topic in that way in that place...

You make a thread about Atlus or Sony or Mojang, then i want to discuss about Atlus, Sony or Mojang... but in that thread we couldn't, cause it was about eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeverything. Then, if we opened up to include everything ("so, what about this one and that one?") we got shot down because it was just about Atlus and how everybody was shitty for not demonizing the shitty thing the shitty company was doing...

[Krylo]

Originally Posted by Bells

No, it was just because the conversation was about an entire subject, and yet that whole subject was focused on a single series of a single company posted in the Games subforum (so, not even a general discussion). to which, i, myself suggested that that might not be the best venue to talk about that topic in that way in that place...

You make a thread about Atlus or Sony or Mojang, then i want to discuss about Atlus, Sony or Mojang... but in that thread we couldn't, cause it was about eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeverything. Then, if we opened up to include everything ("so, what about this one and that one?") we got shot down because it was just about Atlus and how everybody was shitty for not demonizing the shitty thing the shitty company was doing...

Originally Posted by Krylo

Bells, I say this in the most loving way possible, but put down the shovel, and come on out of that hole.

You can take my hand. I'll help.

.

[Fenris]

Originally Posted by Krylo, post #180

~snip, but no seriously read this post like 6 times~Hey Grim, maybe like, take a step back and take a deep breath. Like, you seem to be getting a little angry, and lets try to keep this from drama bombing again.

Also, for everyone: Heterosexual Male Gaze (or Het Male Gaze, or more commonly Male Gaze) doesn't reference to the gaze of any actual heterosexual males.

What refers to is how the media panders to things that heterosexual males appreciate. See the 'butts and boob' poses that pretty much every female comic book character gets in nearly every shot they're in. That is to say that, regardless of how ridiculous it is, both the butt and boobs must be visible in any given shot of a woman.

That's just a super easy example, and one you can verify yourself.

For more examples this tumblr is pretty great for basic printed ones. Or do some outside research.

When someone says 'male gaze' or 'het male gaze' or whatever, they aren't talking about you staring at some lady's butt too long in the checkout line. In fact, I don't think anyone REALLY blames you if you do that now and then. I mean, you should try not to, but hormones, amirite?

What they are talking about is how nearly all the media we have stares at every woman's butt too long, or how women in television usually can't have a full conversation without talking about boys or how every 'strong female character' has to have rape as their backstory, or a million other terrible things.

It's important to be able to separate that from yourself. It's also important to realize that as heterosexual males it's even okay to like it when camera angles pan to your sexuality! No one is telling you that you can't! What they are saying is that you should be cognizant of why they're problematic and how much better our media would be if maybe women could talk about things other than boys for more than five minutes, or a strong female character could be strong because her parents died and she learned to be a ninja to avenge them instead of because she was raped and swore to become powerful so NEVER AGAIN, or nearly raped and the emotional trauma hardened her or whatever terrible thing.

That's all it means, and I trust we can all agree the world would be a better place if we didn't have it so pervasively in our media.

This post right here is the single best post that clearly explains exactly what the issue with absolute precision.

Everybody on both sides of this debate should reread this post and strive to emulate it for the rest of forever.

[Bells]

and So Krylo, Ryong and Bells walked towards the light.
Hand helds and hearts light.
Away, away, tonight was the night it was alright.

[Grimpond]

Fuck you krylo you piece of shit.

I can't see that avatar and not start singing.

[Grand Master Kickface]

I know I said I'd quit the forums, and I still intend to abide by that statement, but I figured I'd chime in with my two cents now that I've had more time to think about this.

"Progressive" is not an objective idea. Everyone believes that they are on the side of righteousness, that their personal set of morals are the universal standard against which all others should be judged.

I deeply value individuality, and the freedom to disagree. Within my own set of values, it is more progressive to be committed to mutual respect and the freedom to hold deviant opinions without reprisal than it is to demand that all media, speech, and expression be made completely inoffensive to particular groups of people, no matter through what means, no matter what else is sacrificed. To me, that is totalitarianism. Shame is oppression, no matter how justified the shamer believes him/herself to be. When you shame someone, you deny them their personhood.

"Progressiveness" is comforting to identity. Individuality is essential to it. This forum has made me feel that I cannot have both, and so I choose to walk away to assert my sense of self. Possessing a sense of agency is more important to me than falling in line with somebody else's universal declaration of what "progressiveness" is and is not. It no longer matters to me if I am a bigot, because at least I am a bigot who owns his own thoughts.

The entire framework of "right" and "wrong" doesn't even matter to me anymore. I need to be an individual person, and this forum has repeatedly sent the message, whether through direct censorship or tacit shaming, that I cannot be that person here. So once again, I say goodbye. I'm grateful to have learned things here, but I need a belonging that allows me to be.

[A Zarkin' Frood]

This thread has taken a turn for the worse, it used to be about drama and arguments and arguments about arguments. And now you fucking fucks had to ruin it fuck you.

E: Oh, Grandmaster Kick Face saved it again.

[Ryong]

Originally Posted by Krylo

Ryong, I say this in the most loving way possible, but put down the shovel, and come on out of that hole.

You can take my hand. I'll help.

I'm not exactly the only one who dug this hole.

With that out of the way:

I misinterpreted a post based on a member's track record. This is not a concept so alien to any of you as this is exactly what I've been talking about for the last few posts as it being a thing that keeps happening with mine. I have to admit I'm pissed because it seems the only way for anything I say to matter is if I don't agree 100% with someone, as otherwise I'm ignored. That and I keep being thrown in "all of you" arguments where I don't agree with shit that the group does or thinks. I would like if my opinion mattered when I'm right too, not just when I'm wrong.

Terex, I don't think anyone goes off the handle when people post about a subject that is agreed on being a bad thing, but Liz has in the past, managed to portray her points in ways that make most people who would normally agree, disagree. Of course bigotry is bad, of course sexism is bad, of course racism, transphobia, homophobia, outlawed gay marriages and I could go on and on and on on how all this shit and more is so terrible, but then a point gets made in a way that either you agree with the same fervor of the person who made it or you're terrible forever, no better than people who openly support all that and suddenly you're under fire for it.

[Nique]

Guys, stop victimizing yourselves. No one is buying it because no one actually thinks what you are saying they think.

[Magus]

In the future I hope all controversial threads go like this and reach their logical conclusion nearly immediately and get locked within a day or so. No sense dickering about anymore.

Note: My purpose in linking rape jokes was not necessarily to say rape jokes are funny, but to get to the logical conclusion of the thread more quickly. In fact I stated that in my posts. POS just going ahead and locking it was even more profound.

I honestly think we will be able to get this down to a science, people.