The shady world of compulsory unions...

[Kim]

Originally Posted by DFM

What.

Edit: This makes literally no sense no matter how I look at it.

He's saying if you don't like your job you should just quit and find a better one, because that's sooooo easy to do. So yeah, doesn't make sense.

[DFM]

Originally Posted by NonCon

He's saying if you don't like your job you should just quit and find a better one, because that's sooooo easy to do. So yeah, doesn't make sense.

I don't think so because I'm pretty sure he's responding to this:

Unions may suck but they are infinitely preferable to the alternative.

So it sounds like he's saying if there were no unions then we would all be able to have new jobs. Which makes even less sense than what you think he's talking about.

[POS Industries]

It's not even really a possible alternative to the pre-union situation Stefan laid out, in which case you're being forced to work a job for an unlivable wage to pay off the debt that the owners of said shitty racket say you owe them.

Granted, that's a worst case scenario, but it was one that was fairly common back then, and the "good jobs" you had available were mainly the ones that still paid unlivable wages for 18 hour shifts but at least they weren't going to have your legs broke if you quit.

[BitVyper]

It's one of the reasons that you can't give tips to baggers in Wal-mart or Publix stores. It's also one of the reasons most big shopping "marts" have done away with that service.

Please please tell me you are not blaming this on unions. Retail places will often do everything in their power to cripple and destroy unions because the idea of treating their employees like human beings fills them with dread - if that means eliminating a few job positions, then hey, whatever. Wal-Mart tried to pull that when its meat workers unionized - they actually got taken to court and forced to keep the positions, as I recall. Anyway, all of this basically happens because the unions are doing what they are supposed to do - making employers respect the rights of their employees and pay fair wages. If the employer is willing to take immoral and possibly illegal actions to prevent that, it's hardly the union's fault.

I once got in trouble at a retail job for saying the word "union." Retail places are terrified of being forced to respect the rights of their workers.

From this as well as learning about unions, eventually they don't represent the interests of the people they're supposed to protect. That's more or less why I think they're a complete waste of time.

So the other day, my boss decided to discipline me for something I didn't do. If it were not for the union, I would be on a five day suspension, and possibly fired. Instead, I got an apology.

I've had supervisors try to deny my overtime claims - the union made them pay me. I've had supervisors harass me - the union made them apologise and stop.

Yeah no, I can see what you mean - unions are a huge waste of time.

[Jagos]

Originally Posted by DFM

So it sounds like he's saying if there were no unions then we would all be able to have new jobs. Which makes even less sense than what you think he's talking about.

How I took stefan's comment, if it wasn't the fact that unions didn't exist before 1950, we'd all be coal miners. I'm pretty sure that when people found new revenue streams (TV, movies, computers), coal mining became less proficient for so many people to do. Hyperbole aside, It's not as if unions really care about anyone outside of their base of operations. They've also changed for the worse since their inceptions of the past century or two. Sure, you get a day off on the 4th of July. Whoopdie do.

And yes, I had a negative experience when I supposedly had union representation at another job. Nothing I could do but sit there and take it while they sat on their asses and collected a paycheck. But they represented my concerns which got to the managers, which got to whoever and NOTHING was done with it.

Unions had their place in history. Nowadays, with so many unions closing down or going out of business, I can't see where they're needed to "protect" a job.

In NYC the unions are viewed pretty positively by their workers.

I recently listened as NY was the target of the fashion industry. Basically, textiles have moved to India and China with a LOT of people looking for jobs that were seamstresses and seamsters. Meanwhile, Calvin Klein, Tommy, and J-Lo continue to make money on this trend of moving business to other parts of the world.

Would a union have been able to stop this trend?

[Kim]

Originally Posted by Jagos

I recently listened as NY was the target of the fashion industry. Basically, textiles have moved to India and China with a LOT of people looking for jobs that were seamstresses and seamsters. Meanwhile, Calvin Klein, Tommy, and J-Lo continue to make money on this trend of moving business to other parts of the world.

Would a union have been able to stop this trend?

Union is unable to stop outsourcing does not equal unions are bad. Companies outsource because it's cheaper and they can get away with treating their employees in other countries like shit. If I have to choose between being treated how Calvin Klein treats employees in third world countries and not working for goddamn Calvin Klein then fuck Calving Klein I'll get a decent job.

[BitVyper]

Would a union have been able to stop this trend?

Possibly. See my Wal-Mart example.

Another handy aspect of unions is that you don't have to accept abuse just because you don't have the money or time for a long drawn out court battle with an employer who has plenty of both. Arbitration is your friend.

[Magus]

Many jobs cannot be outsourced to other countries, such as service jobs like clerks, people who work at registers, etc. Calvin Klein still has to hire people to work at their stores to sell their goods. Unions don't necessarily work to keep jobs here (sometimes they can, sometimes they can't), but they can definitely work to make workplaces a much better place to work in, work for benefits like health insurance, and work for pay raises, etc.

In any case, the reason that corporations outsource to third world countries is that those countries' workers don't have unions, and collect way less than U.S. minimum wage. Unions worked to get things like workplace safety and minimum wage into place in this country; otherwise workers here would be as bad off as those in other countries. Yeah, they have a lot more laws and acts in place now to keep it from regressing back to the way it was before unionization, but there is always new progress that can be made in the workplace. This comes at the cost of some jobs being outsourced, true, but that could be avoided by taxing corporations that outsource (I don't think that would go over well with conservatives, though, despite their protectionist attitudes about everything else and their lip-service to avoiding outsourcing), tariffs on goods produced via outsourcing, or some other legislation. Blaming unions for causing some other problems by working to address the original problems isn't what we should be doing, we should be blaming the people who caused the original problems.

[krogothwolf]

Unions have pro's and con's. The Pro is they look out for the safety of their workers, the con is that occasionally they can get to greedy and put themselves first over the company itself and could end up forcing a poor situation for both sides. It doesn't happen very often but it can. Also some of the power Striking Unions get is a little ludicrous at times.

There is one area were I think Unions should exist for, Sports players who make ridiculous amount of money (I'm still bitter about the NHL Lockout).

[BitVyper]

The Pro is they look out for the safety of their workers

They do a lot more than that. They ensure that your rights are protected, they ensure that you aren't being taken advantage of in other ways (like making sure the employer isn't piling duties onto you that you aren't being paid for), they ensure that you're paid a fair wage with fair raises - the list of things unions do for you goes on.

Also some of the power Striking Unions get is a little ludicrous at times.

The power of striking unions only just approaches the power employers wield over their employees on a daily basis.

Unions are what force employers to be accountable for their actions, and lord knows they need to be forced. It's easy to hate on them when strikes make your life less convenient, but you're otherwise asking employees to bend over and take it up the ass.