A conversation about conversations about bigotry

[shiney]

Seeya Pip, others. I am fed up too and taking a while off. Might be back. Might not. So I will say.

As a user...not an admin...liz, you're an asshole. You're self-righteous and a jerk. You have the moral high ground and you have the right view of equality and you use this position to attack and belittle people with whom you disagree. You could easily use that capital in a generous way but no. Just fuckrage all the time. 90% of our reported posts are about your crusades. Either your posts or those arguing yours. There is a limit to how much I want to deal with. We take bigotry and whatever seriously, I am sure you've seen all the defense and deference you've been given. I don't want to disrespect my mod team but I'm sick of this forum being one giant argument in every thread.

I'll see you guys when this forum remembers actual fun and arguments can be civil. Too much to ask for some.

[Kim]

Originally Posted by shiney

As a user...not an admin...liz, you're an asshole. You're self-righteous and a jerk. You have the moral high ground and you have the right view of equality and you use this position to attack and belittle people with whom you disagree.

I use it to call out people on their bullshit.

When Bells makes a post basically saying, "All asians look the same lol," yeah I'm gonna call him out on that and I'm not going to be particularly nice about it. At the same time, I didn't go out of my way to make it overly personal, which I would have if I was intending to belittle people as you seem to think.

When Pip talks about rounding up all the crazies and locking them up and giving them dirty looks, I'm going to call him out on that.

When people resort to tone argument, dismissive attitudes, and the same tired cliches of privileged derailing I've seen time and time again because they don't take what I'm saying seriously, I'm going to call them out on that.

If I wanted to belittle them, I could and would. I could be much meaner about it. I'm exactly as mean as I need to be. "Hey! You said this awful thing! What the fuck." When I feel it's necessary, I also add, "Here is why this awful fucking thing you said was an awful fucking thing."

Why am I dismissive towards people I disagree with? Because the people I disagree with all tend to be reading from the same script. There are fucking bingo cards because this shit comes up so often.

It's not me being an asshole. It's me not pretending that people abusing their privilege and reading from a script are doing anything more than that.

You could easily use that capital in a generous way but no. Just fuckrage all the time.

I'm plenty pleasant and generous. There are loads of examples of this. I'm not pleasant and generous to bigots and people who abuse their privilege, but I really fail to see why I ought to be so long as I don't cross the line.

90% of our reported posts are about your crusades. Either your posts or those arguing yours.

Other people's posts aren't my problem. Blaming them on me is bullshit.

We take bigotry and whatever seriously

This is a laugh.

The thread where I was last banned was one giant bag of anti-Islam bigotry where an admin told me I wasn't allowed to tell people the things they said were racist, even though the things they said were racist.

Pip just recently talked about rounding up people with mental disabilities, locking them up, and giving them dirty looks. He wasn't punished at all for that. (Note: This isn't a call for him to be punished for it. He's leaving. I don't give a fuck.)

Here's the thing: If you're going to take bigotry seriously, you can't just say that you do. You have to actually show it. Mods telling people they aren't allowed to call out racism, something that happened to people other than me as well, and plain ignoring ableist bigotry that drove a forum member away. People didn't seem to give a fuck when bigotry made a member regret coming back. But I was mean to the person who was bigoted, and we all gotta let me know I'm an asshole for that.

You don't take bigotry seriously. You never have. There've been only minor improvements in this respect since you last argued that "people don't have a right to not be offended."

Here's the reality of the situation, Shiney. You mildly care about bigotry when it's brought to your attention by someone else. That's not taking bigotry seriously. That's sitting on the couch and going, "That's bullshit," when you hear about someone being bigoted on TV. They aren't the same. They never have been.

[Arcanum]

It's funny because you're doing this again:

Originally Posted by Shiney

you use this position to attack and belittle people with whom you disagree.

Originally Posted by Liz

It's not me being an asshole

This actually explains a lot. You just genuinely don't realize when you're being an asshole.

[Kim]

It's funny because several people resorted to outright insults in this thread and none of them were me.

[Ryong]

Just because there are OTHER assholes doesn't mean you're not being one.

[Kim]

Except I'm the only one being called out on it, despite not resorting to the behavior the others are.

So, there's that.

EDIT: Like, if the person not resorting to really overtly shitty behavior is the only on being called an asshole, then it stands to reason that the people who are calling that person an asshole have really shitty standards of what constitutes being an asshole. If everyone's calling an apple an orange, they aren't qualified to tell someone whether or not they're holding an orange, regardless of whether or not they're holding an orange.

[Ryong]

Because the fact that you're not being an asshole at this exact moment clearly means you never were an asshole, right?

[Kim]

Well, I've hardly been posting lately and what I have posted has been completely in line.

If we're going to say that I'm an asshole forever because I was an asshole in the past, then literally everyone in this forum is an asshole forever.

Honestly, I'm a bit sick and tired of everyone getting to throw as many direct insults at me as they want and me just having to sit here and deal with it, so how about you knock that off.

[Red Fighter 1073]

Except I'm the only one being called out on it, despite not resorting to the behavior the others are.

Except I got banned, Greed got banned, Pip got banned, SMB got banned, Sif got banned. The major major difference is that I assume that at least most of us actually realized we were being assholes. You constantly have this sense of standing on some moral high ground where nothing you say is ever wrong and if anyone has a different opinion than you and actually dares to debate with you, then you'll just keep shouting about how your opinion about an ambiguous matter is the only correct one until they either get sick of you and leave the thread or the thread implodes and the mods have to step in and close the thread.

[Fenris]

Originally Posted by Liz

Honestly, I'm a bit sick and tired of everyone getting to throw as many direct insults at me as they want and me just having to sit here and deal with it, so how about you knock that off.

Honestly, you typically do your fair share of throwing direct insults at other people and them just sitting there and dealing with it, so perhaps we could all just stop being assholes to each other.

This debacle makes me sick. Both sides are completely and utterly in the wrong and the headache that is being induced by trying to sort this out is astronomical.

@Liz: I don't understand what the fuck is so difficult about not being as obstinate and as cruel as possible to people you disagree with, but it is a long-standing problem that you've been called out on before with absolutely no earnest effort to improve.

And this is the fucking worst part about moderating Liz, is that she always comes from the correct moral side of the debate. People should really stop saying bigotted things. Intent doesn't matter in terms of bigotry; most bigots don't mean to be bigots. It's a matter of noticing that "oh hey it's actually kind of fucked up for me to have these views" and then doing something about having those views.

On the flip side of that I don't want NPF to become some sort of place where nobody can ever crack a joke for fear of offending anybody. I think that common sense and tastefulness honestly do have a place in regards to whether or not to get out the CIVIL RIGHTS banners. And this is where Liz and I completely disagree, and that's cool too. Just stop having disagreements in the most disrespectful way possible and I think some serious strides can be made towards maybe repairing the rift that has come into our community.

This thread is a shitshow and I don't know what to do about it any more.