On honeymoon in Vegas, Republican governors seek couples counseling with America

[Hatake Kakashi]

Originally Posted by pocheros

Ever heard of arranged marriages and child marriages?

I have. I've also heard of actual, holy-shit-it's-the-real-thing marriages based upon love, trust, and a willingness to be vulnerable to one other person with whom you can no longer imagine spending your lifetime without. Again, it's about who is involved and their motives. You can't go around spouting things like "Marriage is evil" for reasons that could be used to define anything else as evil; things such as control, dominance, fear, power, human beings treated like property.... the list goes on. With that in mind, one could say "Laws are evil, sex is evil, money is evil," etc., but again, it depends upon who is using it and for what purpose. Law misused becomes tyranny. Sex misused becomes molestation and rape. Money misused becomes corruption.

It still doesn't mean that the concepts of marriage, law, sex, or money are inherently bad.

[pochercoaster]

I'm not saying that individual marriages are evil (I'm married myself), but so long as marriage exists in a patriarchal society it will further the interests of patriarchy. While there are egalitarian marriages, everywhere throughout the world (including the US) there are many more that enable male violence and subjugation of women through rape, spousal murder, financial abuse, etc. It's not all that uncommon (will find stats to back this up.) Considering marriage was conceived as a means to control women & children like chattel, it's really hard to separate the institution from the violence it causes and continues to cause. Marrying for romantic love is a really recent development and hasn't existed long enough to undo all the damage marriage does. Overall IMO it's quite safe to say that marriage is an evil institution.

[Hatake Kakashi]

I'm afraid I disagree. I sincerely doubt that people everywhere would fight so passionately to have the right to something inherently evil. I'm well aware of the abuses that happen in marriages, but again, you're looking at people getting married for entirely wrong reasons. Many men today get married to acquire a live-in sex-slave/concubine/dishwasher/punching bag/whateverpitifulreason, but the fact remains that many have found marriage to be a satisfying, life-long expression of love, devotion, and legally binding means to ensure their spouse is cared for in the event of their passing. Again, I argue that it's the motive behind the action, not the action itself.

You can't tell me, honestly, that millions of interracial, lesbian, gay, and transgender couples would want to fight for the right to have something equivalent to enslavement placed upon them. There has to be more to the institution of marriage than you're letting on.

[pochercoaster]

Except that's not what I was saying. I absolutely support same sex marriage. Where in my post did I say I'm against same sex marriage? (Also, what precludes the possibility of a same-sex spouse criticizing marriage as an institution?)

I was just explaining why I think marriage is evil.

You can support someone's right to an institution while still criticizing that institution. I similarly think the military is evil but everyone should be able to participate in it without being discriminated against.

Originally Posted by Hatake Kakashi

You can't tell me, honestly, that millions of interracial, lesbian, gay, and transgender couples would want to fight for the right to have something equivalent to enslavement placed upon them. There has to be more to the institution of marriage than you're letting on.

Because society benefits married couples in ways that it doesn't benefit unmarried couples, such as access to health insurance, immigration, taxes, raising a family, etc. which forces couple who don't want to be married to get married in order to enjoy benefits that should actually be available to everyone regardless of their marital status.

[Hatake Kakashi]

Originally Posted by pocheros

Except that's not what I was saying. I absolutely support same sex marriage. Where in my post did I say I'm against same sex marriage?

You didn't. And I wasn't originally arguing with you. However;

Originally Posted by Professor Smarmiarty

Marriage is a patently evil institution and people all being like "Ohhoho we are going to pretend its bad for silly reasons" just takes away from the legitimate problems with it.

My argument was simply that marriage is not evil. You never said laws were evil, either. Nor money. Nor anything else that I mentioned. Picking an example that I made with a current hot topic to make a straw-man of isn't helping anyone.

Originally Posted by pocheros

Because society benefits married couples in ways that it doesn't benefit unmarried couples, such as access to health insurance, immigration, taxes, raising a family, etc. which forces couple who don't want to be married to get married in order to enjoy benefits that should actually be available to everyone regardless of their marital status.

Also, those who are getting married for those benefits you mentioned illustrate my point exactly. It's the motive behind the action that defines whether the act is good or evil. You could say that society itself is corrupt in the fashions that it coerces people into committing various actions in order to benefit themselves, and that I would wholeheartedly agree with.

[Osterbaum]

There's also the religious origins of marriage as an institution and what it implies when it is used as the official way to recognize couples by a state.

[Magus]

Originally Posted by Osterbaum

There's also the religious origins of marriage as an institution and what it implies when it is used as the official way to recognize couples by a state.

Well there were various movements to "strengthen civil unions", i.e. according straight and same-sex civil union partners the same rights married spouses have, in various states. But as far as I could tell neither side wanted to budge on the issue.

In the end the people working against recognizing same-sex civil unions ended up "losing" out in that so many of these states have just straight-up passed same-sex MARRIAGE laws.

[phil_]

Originally Posted by Hatake Kakashi

You never said laws were evil, either. Nor money.

I called money evil, but then I didn't submit the post 'cause I didn't feel like continuing to make this thread about how marriage is evil. But then you had to post this thing. I guess I could offer "Man, sometimes I think about things man"-type reasons why money is evil, but I think it would be more productive to stick what made me post. When you list a bunch of points that obviously no one would agree with because that would be silly, and no one addresses those silly points, that doesn't mean you win top score.* That last sentence was the important part of this post.

*This still applies when the points aren't silly; it's more about the "You gotta address all these, too" thing.

[Hatake Kakashi]

Originally Posted by phil_

I called money evil, but then I didn't submit the post 'cause I didn't feel like continuing to make this thread about how marriage is evil. But then you had to post this thing. I guess I could offer "Man, sometimes I think about things man"-type reasons why money is evil, but I think it would be more productive to stick what made me post. When you list a bunch of points that obviously no one would agree with because that would be silly, and no one addresses those silly points, that doesn't mean you win top score. That last sentence was the important part of this post.

Top score?

Wow.

Just...

Wow.

[phil_]

Originally Posted by Hatake Kakashi

Top score?

Wow.

Just...

Wow.

Top score isn't the thing you win; it is the thing one achieves in order to win.