School digitally edits yearbook photos - young women's clothing choices judged - Page 2

Solid Snake · 05-30-2014, 05:21 PM

I'm just as fond of the incredibly ludicrously depressing notion that as Men we somehow belong to this sacred, mystical "Men's Club" in which it is apparently our sworn sacred duty to defend the reputation of men at all times and in all circumstances, because any time anything is ever men's fault it necessarily implicates all of us and destroys our precious little boy's clubhouse.

Christ, I'm the only lawyer here, but a few of you just seem in this perpetual mentality as attorneys advocating for men everywhere.

It's particularly hysterical when, in certain conversations about misogyny like this one, it's equally misogynistic regardless of the gender of the perpetrators, so even if women were directly responsible for making the decision, it's still patriarchy's fault and it's still a decision made for the benefit of men, but no, the important thing here to RMB is that we don't blame men as instigators of the specific incident in question.

Like fuck, there's no "Team Men" out there that we're [all men here, at least] all a part of by virtue of our gender identity, and we don't lose any fucking points as people for holding men accountable when men are objectively responsible for bullshit.

Red Mage Black · 05-30-2014, 06:01 PM

And it's inevitable that I get told I'm misogynistic and I'm 'defending men' and I realize my question at the beginning, but really? No, I only suggested another scenario. If you guys are going to respond to my posts, at least give me the decency of not being bombarded with 5 other people to respond to. AKA, I rather talk to one person at a time, but fine and here's the thing some people really aren't realizing. People aren't going to suddenly 'open their eyes' when you've pointed something out to them, neither is it going to have mystical impact on their attitude immediately.

I'm not even sure what privilege I'm experiencing right now. Maybe it has to do with these four walls around me that I'm not handed something because I'm white, male and straight. I dunno, maybe I haven't left because the world just doesn't seem worth it anymore. Depression? Apathy? Maybe I'm scared to see a therapist because I don't want to be a drugged out zombie and I choke up and deflect every time I try to bring up what's wrong because they might think I'm making stuff up. Maybe I'm just scared of the world.

Anyway, I'm not going to derail this thread and I'm just tired of everything in general. This post shouldn't even be here, when I look at the above, but maybe it'll grant people some insight.

Marc v4.0 · 05-30-2014, 06:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Mage Black

If you guys are going to respond to my posts, at least give me the decency of not being bombarded with 5 other people to respond to.

This is a forum, not a private chat, everything any of us say is said openly to the rest of us publicly and is open to response from said public.

Red Mage Black · 05-30-2014, 06:14 PM

People can also pick and choose who they respond to while ignoring the rest, it's that simple. Why I didn't think of that before only makes me dumber for having forgot.

And I'm dropping out of this thread too for the same reason as the other.

Solid Snake · 05-30-2014, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red Mage Black

I'm not even sure what privilege I'm experiencing right now. Maybe it has to do with these four walls around me that I'm not handed something because I'm white, male and straight. I dunno, maybe I haven't left because the world just doesn't seem worth it anymore. Depression? Apathy? Maybe I'm scared to see a therapist because I don't want to be a drugged out zombie and I choke up and deflect every time I try to bring up what's wrong because they might think I'm making stuff up. Maybe I'm just scared of the world.

Well, it's certainly clear that all your objections in these threads today have really been about you, and about whatever garbage you're going through personally, as opposed to actually authentically assessing the topics of discussion.

I mean, here's the thing, RMB: There's something like 3.5 billion men on this planet, and 3.499999... billion of them are not you.
Patriarchy doesn't cease to exist simply because one man on this planet isn't reaping the full benefits of it.
Misogyny doesn't cease to exist simply because one man on this planet believes that he values women equally and wouldn't objectify them or discriminate against them.

For that matter, even the nature of your response seems to disturbingly suggest that what you're ruing is that you're not one of the presumably 'fortunate' men who actually gets to experience the supposed 'benefits' of patriarchy. A lot of your anger and resentment in the quoted paragraph seems to reflect this view that you feel slighted to hear of these 'benefits' to being male that you haven't personally accrued.
...Whereas I'd hope instead that you'd feel angry and guilty and embarrassed of the fact that patriarchy exists in the first place.

Kim · 05-30-2014, 06:30 PM

Lots of dudes seem to think that being called privileged means they can't be oppressed on other axis, or even that not being oppressed means your life is perfect. Neither is true. There are some straight white cis dudes who are also fucking rich and they're miserable and they got shit going on in their lives that legitimately sucks for them. Doesn't change the fact that they're sitting on top of the gold pile making everything worse for everyone beneath them, whether they mean to or not.

Being a straight white dude means you have privilege, but it doesn't mean bad things don't happen to you.

Being white didn't save me from wanting to kill myself last year.

Being white didn't save me from being unemployed and drifting from house to house as long as people would put up with me.

But that stuff doesn't invalidate my white privilege! Because as bad as all that was for me, statistically speaking it'd have likely been so much worse were I not white. Like, if I wasn't white the odds on me being murdered for being trans go through the fucking roof.

Bad shit can still happen to you. You're still allowed to be upset about bad shit happening to you. You still deserve sympathy for bad shit happening to you.

What bad shit happening to you does not excuse, why I was as harsh in Aero's thread as I was, is blaming a group you experience privilege over for some portion of the bad shit, or acting like your bad shit is the same as the oppression experienced by others.

Privilege isn't a ladder where identities get you more privilege points and if you have enough points your life is great. Privilege is the specific ways in which you benefit from the oppression of others along a particular axis OR a way of comparing what you simply have by default that an oppressed group does not.

Example: A form of cis privilege is not having to fear being arrested for using a public restroom.

Example: A form of straight privilege is being able to marry and experience the full set of legal benefits straight marriage offers by default in any state in the US.

Example: White privilege means white people's resumes are prioritized over black people's, especially in well-paying sectors, making it easier for white people to get those jobs than it is for black people.

This last one is useful because it shows what that privilege is but it's also clear that even with that privilege a job is not guaranteed.

Red Mage Black · 05-30-2014, 06:43 PM

Fine, I'll throw in one more post, but I really rather not.

I didn't mean to imply that neither of those things exist simply because I'm not a part of them, but before I'm accused of trying to make this thread about me, I'm calling it out here. I'm going to post something in the 99 problems thread instead to the same vein of what I just explained.

RawBot · 05-31-2014, 11:19 AM

Quote:

I'm just as fond of the incredibly ludicrously depressing notion that as Men we somehow belong to this sacred, mystical "Men's Club" in which it is apparently our sworn sacred duty to defend the reputation of men at all times and in all circumstances, because any time anything is ever men's fault it necessarily implicates all of us and destroys our precious little boy's clubhouse.
[...]
Like fuck, there's no "Team Men" out there that we're [all men here, at least] all a part of by virtue of our gender identity, and we don't lose any fucking points as people for holding men accountable when men are objectively responsible for bullshit.

You said it, it's because of identity. Many people are offended when something they relate or pertain to is attacked. It can be religious identity, national identity, even opinion identity. You know how patriotism and religion in particular are very touchy topics, very hard to discuss in a critical way with someone concerned.

So yes, there is a Men's Club

Aerozord · 05-31-2014, 03:51 PM

I dont have a gender identity. I am neutral gendered. I dislike the idea that my sex predetermines me for anything. My hobbies, interests, philosophies, and appearance fall on both gender identities, thus I do not place myself in either.

I also disapprove of any group being alienated for things they cannot help being.

Fifthfiend · 05-31-2014, 04:23 PM

Overwhelmingly likely the girls picked out to have their outfits altered vs the ones who weren't break down along class/ingroup lines

05-30-2014, 05:21 PM	#11
Solid Snake Erotic Esquire Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 5,563	I'm just as fond of the incredibly ludicrously depressing notion that as Men we somehow belong to this sacred, mystical *"Men's Club"* in which it is apparently our sworn sacred duty to defend the reputation of men at all times and in all circumstances, because any time anything is ever men's fault it necessarily implicates all of us and destroys our precious little boy's clubhouse. Christ, *I'm* the only lawyer here, but a few of you just seem in this perpetual mentality as attorneys advocating for men everywhere. It's particularly hysterical when, in certain conversations about misogyny like this one, it's equally misogynistic regardless of the gender of the perpetrators, so even if women were directly responsible for making the decision, it's still patriarchy's fault and it's still a decision made for the benefit of men, but no, the important thing here to RMB is that we *don't blame men* as instigators of the specific incident in question. Like fuck, there's no "Team Men" out there that we're [all men here, at least] all a part of by virtue of our gender identity, and we don't lose any fucking points as people for holding men accountable when men are objectively responsible for bullshit. __________________ *WARNING:* Snek's all up in this thread. Be prepared to read massive walls of text.

05-30-2014, 06:30 PM	#16
Kim adorable Join Date: Sep 2007 Posts: 12,950	Lots of dudes seem to think that being called privileged means they can't be oppressed on other axis, or even that not being oppressed means your life is perfect. Neither is true. There are some straight white cis dudes who are also fucking rich and they're miserable and they got shit going on in their lives that legitimately sucks for them. Doesn't change the fact that they're sitting on top of the gold pile making everything worse for everyone beneath them, whether they mean to or not. Being a straight white dude means you have privilege, but it doesn't mean bad things don't happen to you. Being white didn't save me from wanting to kill myself last year. Being white didn't save me from being unemployed and drifting from house to house as long as people would put up with me. But that stuff doesn't invalidate my white privilege! Because as bad as all that was for me, statistically speaking it'd have likely been so much worse were I not white. Like, if I wasn't white the odds on me being murdered for being trans go through the fucking roof. Bad shit can still happen to you. You're still allowed to be upset about bad shit happening to you. You still deserve sympathy for bad shit happening to you. What bad shit happening to you does not excuse, why I was as harsh in Aero's thread as I was, is blaming a group you experience privilege over for some portion of the bad shit, or acting like your bad shit is the same as the oppression experienced by others. Privilege isn't a ladder where identities get you more privilege points and if you have enough points your life is great. Privilege is the specific ways in which you benefit from the oppression of others along a particular axis OR a way of comparing what you simply have by default that an oppressed group does not. Example: A form of cis privilege is not having to fear being arrested for using a public restroom. Example: A form of straight privilege is being able to marry and experience the full set of legal benefits straight marriage offers by default in any state in the US. Example: White privilege means white people's resumes are prioritized over black people's, especially in well-paying sectors, making it easier for white people to get those jobs than it is for black people. This last one is useful because it shows what that privilege is but it's also clear that even with that privilege a job is not guaranteed. __________________ this post is about how to successfully H the Kimmy Last edited by Kim; 05-30-2014 at 06:34 PM.

05-31-2014, 03:51 PM	#19
Aerozord So we are clear Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Former murder capital of the world Posts: 13,824	I dont have a gender identity. I am neutral gendered. I dislike the idea that my sex predetermines me for anything. My hobbies, interests, philosophies, and appearance fall on both gender identities, thus I do not place myself in either. I also disapprove of any group being alienated for things they cannot help being. __________________ "don't hate me for being a heterosexual white guy disparaging slacktivism, hate me for all those murders I've done."

05-31-2014, 04:23 PM	#20
Fifthfiend for all seasons Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 19,409	Overwhelmingly likely the girls picked out to have their outfits altered vs the ones who weren't break down along class/ingroup lines __________________ check out my buttspresso

05-30-2014, 06:01 PM	#12
Red Mage Black Sent to the cornfield Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Where the Sun isn't so warm. Posts: 2,673	And it's inevitable that I get told I'm misogynistic and I'm 'defending men' and I realize my question at the beginning, but really? No, I only suggested another scenario. If you guys are going to respond to my posts, at least give me the decency of not being bombarded with 5 other people to respond to. AKA, I rather talk to one person at a time, but fine and here's the thing some people really aren't realizing. People aren't going to suddenly 'open their eyes' when you've pointed something out to them, neither is it going to have mystical impact on their attitude immediately. I'm not even sure what privilege I'm experiencing right now. Maybe it has to do with these four walls around me that I'm not handed something because I'm white, male and straight. I dunno, maybe I haven't left because the world just doesn't seem worth it anymore. Depression? Apathy? Maybe I'm scared to see a therapist because I don't want to be a drugged out zombie and I choke up and deflect every time I try to bring up what's wrong because they might think I'm making stuff up. Maybe I'm just scared of the world. Anyway, I'm not going to derail this thread and I'm just tired of everything in general. This post shouldn't even be here, when I look at the above, but maybe it'll grant people some insight.

05-30-2014, 06:14 PM	#14
Red Mage Black Sent to the cornfield Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Where the Sun isn't so warm. Posts: 2,673	People can also pick and choose who they respond to while ignoring the rest, it's that simple. Why I didn't think of that before only makes me dumber for having forgot. And I'm dropping out of this thread too for the same reason as the other.

05-30-2014, 06:43 PM	#17
Red Mage Black Sent to the cornfield Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Where the Sun isn't so warm. Posts: 2,673	Fine, I'll throw in one more post, but I really rather not. I didn't mean to imply that neither of those things exist simply because I'm not a part of them, but before I'm accused of trying to make this thread about me, I'm calling it out here. I'm going to post something in the 99 problems thread instead to the same vein of what I just explained.