A conversation about conversations about bigotry

[Krylo]

Originally Posted by Ryong

I'm not exactly the only one who dug this hole.

With that out of the way:

I misinterpreted a post based on a member's track record. This is not a concept so alien to any of you as this is exactly what I've been talking about for the last few posts as it being a thing that keeps happening with mine. I have to admit I'm pissed because it seems the only way for anything I say to matter is if I don't agree 100% with someone, as otherwise I'm ignored. That and I keep being thrown in "all of you" arguments where I don't agree with shit that the group does or thinks. I would like if my opinion mattered when I'm right too, not just when I'm wrong.

Terex, I don't think anyone goes off the handle when people post about a subject that is agreed on being a bad thing, but Liz has in the past, managed to portray her points in ways that make most people who would normally agree, disagree. Of course bigotry is bad, of course sexism is bad, of course racism, transphobia, homophobia, outlawed gay marriages and I could go on and on and on on how all this shit and more is so terrible, but then a point gets made in a way that either you agree with the same fervor of the person who made it or you're terrible forever, no better than people who openly support all that and suddenly you're under fire for it.

Of course you're not the only person that dug it. You were just the one in it.

Well you and Bells.

That said: What I meant by that post, for both you and Bells, because I believe that you both actually believe more or less the same things I do about sexism etc. is that you should both step back for a bit.

Really read over what has been said, maybe re-read what Liz said and my own recent elucidations about the male gaze, and then just let that ruminate for a while. Let it bounce around in your head for say, fifteen minutes, maybe a half hour. However long it takes you to not be defensive, because no one is trying to attack you, and then ask yourself:

"Are they saying things I actually disagree with?"

Because I don't think anyone really is, Liz included. And then, ask yourself, "Do I want to argue over something I basically agree with?"

Like, I don't know about you, but I get in big messy arguments (most often with Pochy, sometimes with Liz, sometimes with other people here) over silly things like, well, like what I'm talking about here.

And when it's all done I feel a little silly for having gotten into an argument with someone I basically agree with.

And as, from my perspective, you basically agree with Liz, Snake, Grim, Marc, Terex, Pochy, etc. about the important things here, I'm thinking maybe it's just best to step back and let what they're saying sink in a bit.

Maybe I'm wrong!

Maybe I missed something! God knows I didn't have time to fully read the whole mess of posts that happened today while I was at work, but from my perspective I think everyone could just come to a basic agreement on a few things:

1: That Sexism/Homophobia/Transphobia/whatever else is bad.

2: That we should do what we can to reduce bad things.

And

3: That it's kind of shitty to leap to conclusions about someone's tone/intent and attack them, whether directly or indirectly, over it. In fact that's kinda what Pip felt was happening to him!

Now on 3, that's pretty much a natural thing to do, and I don't think anyone is saying you/Bells/whomever else are bad people for maybe doing it a little bit. They're just trying to say that, hey, to us it looks like you're doing this thing, and maybe you could quit doing this thing.

And, as that you basically, right here: "I misinterpreted a post based on a member's track record." admitted that you maybe did that a little, and, in the following sentence, pointed out that you're cognizant of how shitty it is to be on the receiving end of that (as you feel you have been), I think that a full agreement of:

"Hey yeah I did a thing, and I'm sorry I did a thing, but I'll try to refrain from doing that thing in the future," isn't that impossible or far off.

That's what I meant by the hole thing. It wasn't really meant as a dig* at you at all.

In fact, quite the opposite! I think you're a pretty alright guy in general and, for that reason, I think that if you disentangle from this and think it over you'll come out of it looking and feeling better.

*Get it? Because digging a hole and then. . . yeah you get it.

[Ecks]

i like this thread now it gives me warm fuzzy feelings inside

that could just be indigestion though im not really sure

[Grimpond]

Originally Posted by Magus

In the future I hope all controversial threads go like this and reach their logical conclusion nearly immediately and get locked within a day or so. No sense dickering about anymore.

Note: My purpose in linking rape jokes was not necessarily to say rape jokes are funny, but to get to the logical conclusion of the thread more quickly. In fact I stated that in my posts. POS just going ahead and locking it was even more profound.

I honestly think we will be able to get this down to a science, people.

Holy shit. Seriously?

THat isn't a good fucking excuse for rape jokes. That is terrible thing to say. There is NO excuse for rape jokes. they are always, always terrible. YOu turned a potentially good thread into utter shit IMMEDIATELY when you hit submit. It could have gone somewhere else, maybe.

[Solid Snake]

The irony interlaced in Magus' convoluted explanation is that I'd honesty hold less animosity towards him if he honestly, mistakenly provided a link to material he erroneously assumed was hysterical, as opposed to the shenanigans he apparently was up to.

To believe that you deliberately posted those links in an effort to antagonize the conversation or bring the dialogue to an abrupt close, Magus, is to believe that you deliberately posted material you knew was offensive, and in fact you fully anticipated the kind of reaction it would provoke from someone like Pocheros.

...In that case, you basically sent Pocheros (and should have sent the rest of us; it's my mistake for not watching the links beforehand and coming to a more informed opinion) into a justified fury solely for your amusement.

...The alternative, of course, is to simply believe that your mistake was one of privileged ignorance, and that you basically thought to yourself "Man this shit is funny," and of course it really wasn't funny at all. But in that case, at least you'd learn something from this ordeal, and presumably you'd have meant no harm to Pocheros or anyone else, and you'd apologize profusely and everyone would move on.

Yes, engaging in misogyny as a byproduct of one's ignorance would undeniably lead to swift and voracious condemnation of one's conduct, and the message intertwined therein, but assuming the mistake was conceded and lessons were learn, I doubt there'd be any lasting damage to one's integrity. After all, every beneficiary of institutional privilege is a bit ignorant on certain touchy subjects. But to claim knowledge of the offense, and engage in the destructive conduct nonetheless? That's low.

/ my opinion, not anyone else's stance

[POS Industries]

Yeah, I don't think "let's make threads terrible so they'll reach the terrible conclusion I expect of them and get locked more quickly" is a particularly good philosophy as opposed to "let's just try not to make threads terrible."

Though I guess if you're committed to that goal it's good that you've stood up and declared it openly so that we know who to eventually remove when threads keep going downhill, what with trolling being against the rules and all.

[Ecks]

dude magus that was probably the shittiest thing ever

for shame

[Terex4]

Originally Posted by Ryong

Terex, I don't think anyone goes off the handle when people post about a subject that is agreed on being a bad thing, but Liz has in the past, managed to portray her points in ways that make most people who would normally agree, disagree. Of course bigotry is bad, of course sexism is bad, of course racism, transphobia, homophobia, outlawed gay marriages and I could go on and on and on on how all this shit and more is so terrible, but then a point gets made in a way that either you agree with the same fervor of the person who made it or you're terrible forever, no better than people who openly support all that and suddenly you're under fire for it.

I'm just going to throw this out there, but I don't think for a moment that when anyone reflects on any of these threads, "man Ryong really shitted that thing up" is the first thought thing that floats to the top.

My point was that, with the ATLUS thread being the prime example I pulled it from, many points were laid out explaining what was going on and why. Other people went into the thread and basically said "not good enough, I need more." And continued to pound the concept that it simply wasn't enough to be properly outraged over.

Some were far, far worse than others.

The simple fact of the matter is, there are threads that sometimes, you just don't need to respond to. Other times a simple google search will take care of the problem. Like I said above, I had no idea why exactly poch was offended over the bukkake comment, so I looked it up. I didn't have to ask anything beyond that.

This place is recreational, its an escape for you, an escape for me, and everyone else here. To come here and be confronted with the same brand of bullshit I came inside to get away from is ridiculous. That's why I started going to the other forum, I feel safe there. I know that if I'm going to log in to find a totally WTF thread, its going to be a link to a news article, not the bullshittery of other members.

This whole Liz issue has turned into a Frankenstein-esque mob and a cry for justice. A cry for justice in retaliation to another member's cry for justice.

And yeah, you might get your fingers singed when asking for information, some of us have to spend a lot of time off the internet justifying or explaining ourselves. I don't even know how many times I've tried to explain why my transition is necessary (and it is not easy to convey those feelings accurately.) Those of us who can be bothered to do so get sick of it while others just don't explain much, if anything, for that reason. If you're on the internet, then you're more than capable of finding that information without being just another person pestering us for information.

[Marelo]

Originally Posted by Solid Snake

(and should have sent the rest of us; it's my mistake for not watching the links beforehand and coming to a more informed opinion) into a justified fury solely for your amusement.

Wow, yeah, I didn't have a chance to actually watch those videos 'cause I was at work when most of this went down. I am agreed with this sentiment.

[pochercoaster]

Can I put this GIF here? It's a bit late, but...

[Magus]

Originally Posted by Grimpond

Holy shit. Seriously?

THat isn't a good fucking excuse for rape jokes. That is terrible thing to say. There is NO excuse for rape jokes. they are always, always terrible. YOu turned a potentially good thread into utter shit IMMEDIATELY when you hit submit. It could have gone somewhere else, maybe.

Maybe but that would have been pointless? If a discussion about rape jokes is off limits then there's simply no point in going "Let's talk about EDGY humor...just not quite that edgy. Maybe just stick to murder, torture, racism, and the Holocaust."

And no Snake, I didn't deliberately TRY to be offensive, I deliberately tried to get to the most offensive humor in order to get to an actual worthwhile discussion. My comment about it leading directly to people posting two offended posts and POS just up and closing it is more of a retconned comment on the current state of the forum: people flip their shit and the topic is then closed. At this rate we should just develop a formula for all future threads to save ourselves the trouble of having two pages of posts: 1. Thread topic. 2. Most extreme issue of discussion comes up. 3. Everybody bitches at each other. 4. Thread gets closed. We can get this down to ten posts, max.

So no I didn't actually "plan" it. But it would have been the perfect plan.

EDIT:

Like here is that topic in a nutshell:

1. Bells: "Here is some edgy humor."

2. Magus: "I dunno, man, didn't you see that bigotry topic and how that went."

3. Krylo: "No one learned anything."

4. Magus: "Fine here is some rape jokes."

5. Bells: "Here is a gay rape joke since Magus set the tone."

6. Magus: "I mean it's like if you're going to talk about edgy comedy might as well go straight to the rape jokes. "

7. A bunch of people talk about rape jokes and whether they are okay (in a somewhat circuitous manner of discussion that ultimately goes nowhere like our convos usually go, and I'm not saying I'm any better at them, because I'm not. I am circuitous as the next man, but maybe lessons were learned).

8. Grimpond and pocheros say they are offended by rape jokes and that they are never acceptable.

9. POS closes topic.

I'm not sure of his motive, unless it was to avoid another yelling contest (which is like, why would I yell at Grimpond or pocheros instead of just responding to their posts in my usual manner), or just the rape jokes part of the thread, or pocheros post summed up everything that could be said on the topic, or whatever discussion could have been gleaned was gleaned (probably not).

That said, in the future I hope we could all just be like, "No, don't post about rape jokes" and then I could just edit them out or whatever and we could go ahead and have that edgy but not too edgy joke topic or whatever.

ANOTHER EDIT:

I mean hell pochero's post then had a funny Wanda Sykes' bit in it that was anti-rape so the topic was still serving its purpose while simultaneously speaking out against rape jokes, so I see no reason the thread couldn't have continued.