Stargate SG1 Mafia

[Skyshot]

Originally Posted by Mesden

How you 'generally' act doesn't really take precedence in here.

I can't really answer this one. I mean, all I've got on that is "Nuh uh!" which doesn't really get us anywhere.

Originally Posted by Mesden

No no no. You completely take what I say out of context. HERE is the actual quote.

Not exactly out of context. The first half of that sentence, which I quoted before, is the defense for the second half, which I left out, because it was the conclusion I was indirectly rebutting by going after the defense. I'm not playing like that to throw an added vote to my advantage.

Originally Posted by Mesden

It's not so bad to change your votes quickly a little, but you do it a lot. And Bandwagon.

First, you notice when I bandwagon, I not only do so jokingly, I take back my votes. I haven't voted someone simply because everyone else was doing it. That's one reason I look like I'm constantly shifting my vote around -- I'm trying to keep from accidentally lynching someone who I didn't really feel deserved to be lynched. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I only bandwagoned IC (because I found it amusing to unvote and revote in the same post, along with the whole "bandwagons are for jumping on" thing), and B_Real (because I was extending his joke of voting for himself.) Aside from that, the only time I remember shifting my vote was the whole Newb-you-Newb thing. Looks like we're about to get into that one.

Originally Posted by Mesden

If anything, you seem just a little bit too easy to suade from one accusation to another without really giving it thought.

I gave it thought. Look at the time delay between those posts. Each time, I actually thought about it.

Originally Posted by Mesden

You were 'suckered'? Were you actually? Or were you just hopping onto what looked like the best oppurtunity for a lynch?

Yes, I was actually suckered. I'm not sure how I'd prove that, besides my newbie status, which I'm uncomfortable bringing up because it feels like I'm playing some "I'm a novice don't hate me" card.

Originally Posted by Mesden

For all I know it could just be the next closest lynch for you.

For all I know you're a mafiate or the SK trying to lead a lynch against me and tilt the scales in your favor. I mean, that's so abstract, it's almost impossible to form a clear defense against it. All you've done is suggest an alternative and imply because it's your alternative, it's the better one. I'll top that by saying for all you know, I'm being unjustly accused.

Originally Posted by Mesden

Third:"I mean, usually people complain about people who hold their ground when the evidence shifts against them" Well, when they do, we just need to remind them that you need to hold your ground or get lynched, huh?

I meant in a general sense, not just in terms of the game.

[Mesden]

Originally Posted by Skyshot

I can't really answer this one. I mean, all I've got on that is "Nuh uh!" which doesn't really get us anywhere.

Well yeah. Saying something like that in the first place is fruitless.

Not exactly out of context. The first half of that sentence, which I quoted before, is the defense for the second half, which I left out, because it was the conclusion I was indirectly rebutting by going after the defense. I'm not playing like that to throw an added vote to my advantage.

Point was, it was the two parts of the sentence to which your reply was:

"If this is unusual behavior for me, I need to seriously re-evaluate how I post in the other forums. Granted, I heard Silly Kitty did that in one game where eshe was a mafiate, so I'm not sure what else to say besides "It's just me being me."

To which everything following was on other points. It's the Good-on-everyone's-side + the excessive use of voting. It makes it easy for you to just vote on whoever at any given time, if it sinks in well enough.

I don't see where you address that combination of the two parts of the sentence. It's all one sentence beause it's all one accusation.

First, you notice when I bandwagon, I not only do so jokingly, I take back my votes. I haven't voted someone simply because everyone else was doing it. That's one reason I look like I'm constantly shifting my vote around -- I'm trying to keep from accidentally lynching someone who I didn't really feel deserved to be lynched.

I can understand a joke as much as the next person, but when you do it oh so much, it's less a joke as far as I'm concerned.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I only bandwagoned IC (because I found it amusing to unvote and revote in the same post, along with the whole "bandwagons are for jumping on" thing), and B_Real (because I was extending his joke of voting for himself.) Aside from that, the only time I remember shifting my vote was the whole Newb-you-Newb thing. Looks like we're about to get into that one.

Yes, the Newb and I thing. The thing in which you quite quickly shift your votes to the newly incriminated person before giving them a chance to respond.

I gave it thought. Look at the time delay between those posts. Each time, I actually thought about it.

Since when has the time between dictated how much thought was put into it?

Yes, I was actually suckered. I'm not sure how I'd prove that, besides my newbie status, which I'm uncomfortable bringing up because it feels like I'm playing some "I'm a novice don't hate me" card.

I can give you the benefit of the doubt, but you should at very least let me get my say in onto Newb BEFORE you throw your vote out. That's a HUGE reason for my belief of you throwing your vote around.

Let me get this through:

You make jokes using your vote. Does that not add to my reasoning that you throw your vote around? If you can use your vote as a joke so carelessly, then you need to understand that that is scummy.

Sure, a joke is fine, but check the context. I'l' take it stepwise.

-You more or less random vote off a gut feeling for IC.
-More people join the bandwagon
-You, instead of taking your vote off the bandwagon as you seem to imply when you say "I'm trying to keep from accidentally lynching someone who I didn't really feel deserved to be lynched.", reinforce the vehemently growing bandwagon.
-You take your vote off as soon as someone passively incriminates you. (Me, when I said I had something against IC voters)

You did not seem to be watching out for others as you say, but jump away from the fire as soon as it even gets close to you. You only change your votes AFTER someone fights back

Remember B_Real?

I'm quite sure you voted on the bandwagon, but as soon as he touches back against you, you pull away.

That's the problem I'm having with your defense. You aren't changing your vote of your own thought, just when any sort of conflict comes your way. This is the only time you haven't instantly backed away, and I'm thinking it's mainly because it's a massive accusation against you.

For all I know you're a mafiate or the SK trying to lead a lynch against me and tilt the scales in your favor. I mean, that's so abstract, it's almost impossible to form a clear defense against it.

Which is why I was opposed to your excuse of being 'flighty'. How do I know you're flighty? All I had to go on was YOUR word about how things were, which is so easily manipulated that there was no way to disprove or prove it.

In your words, it was too abstract for it to be believable.

All you've done is suggest an alternative and imply because it's your alternative, it's the better one. I'll top that by saying for all you know, I'm being unjustly accused.

No, if I was suggesting MY alternative, I would have cold hard down say that you were scum. It was a hypothetical to prove that when YOU say something about yourself, it means jacksquat in here. It's an unknown variable. It can't be concluded that what you say is exactly what was going on, so it's not a viable defense.

In your words: "It's just me being me."

Who exactly ARE you? How can I trust this is just you? That's a faulty basis for any defense. That's why I said the abstract, just to prove it was YOUR alternative.

I meant in a general sense, not just in terms of the game.

Yeah, I kind of see it now. But, we ARE in the game now. =P

[Skyshot]

Originally Posted by Mesden

I'm quite sure you voted on the bandwagon, but as soon as he touches back against you, you pull away.

It was a joke. Did I bandwagon after B_Real? I said we seemed to be at about the point where random voting was getting old. Also, I'm surprised you implied I had an actual gut feeling about IC. Read back over that post. It was a joke about his voting based on gut feelings.

Originally Posted by Mesden

You, instead of taking your vote off the bandwagon as you seem to imply when you say "I'm trying to keep from accidentally lynching someone who I didn't really feel deserved to be lynched.", reinforce the vehemently growing bandwagon.

I wasn't trying to reinforce it. I was surprised when it got taken that way. That's when I changed my vote back.

Originally Posted by Mesden

Since when has the time between dictated how much thought was put into it?

If this were a live game, that sort of thing in sequence might be the result of not really thinking about it. I don't know when you first read those posts relative to each other, so I assumed you were seeing them more "sequentially" and "streamlined" than they actually were (hey, maybe you didn't), but I had time to think about what happened in between. I wasn't so much concerned with waiting for you.

See, let me go over my voting history in the rounds here. First round, I made those random votes that are being thrown at me. Several people voted for B_Real because he was...come to think of it, doing about the same thing I was. Anyways, I wasn't convinced it was justification for a lynch, so I didn't vote, because I wanted to wait for something more concrete. Sith apparently had a deadline I didn't notice, and B_Real turned out to be a townie.

Second round, I voted for Newb because he was being so erratic and claiming to be about as valuable as the PO, which looked suspicious to me, because that would guarantee a night death. Then he did his whole "I'm so sorry" spiel, which caught me hook, line, and sinker, and pretended to drop out of the game. I assumed that'd nullify my vote anyways, and since I believed him, I shifted my vote to the person who was most opposed to him, because that was the best thing I had. You were carrying on a long sparring session with him just as you are with me, and openly opposing someone so valuable to the town looked suspicious.

Then Sith came out and busted Newb. You didn't need to defend yourself against me anymore, because the circumstances provoking my suspicion were gone. I changed my vote to Newb.

Originally Posted by Mesden

Which is why I was opposed to your excuse of being 'flighty'. How do I know you're flighty? All I had to go on was YOUR word about how things were, which is so easily manipulated that there was no way to disprove or prove it.

In your words, it was too abstract for it to be believable.

This can only go in circles. See the first quote and response in your most recent post.

Originally Posted by Mesden

No, if I was suggesting MY alternative, I would have cold hard down say that you were scum.

My statement was not the absolute you made it out to be. Also, you seem to have voted for me. One wonders what to make of that in the context of your arguments here.

Originally Posted by Mesden

Who exactly ARE you? How can I trust this is just you? That's a faulty basis for any defense. That's why I said the abstract, just to prove it was YOUR alternative.

You're welcome to look over this thread and notice a few people saying I'm generally nice to people. Maybe I'll decide a more aggressive playstyle suits me in future games. For now, I'm just going with what comes naturally. Seriously, can some third party vouch for/against me here? This is turning into a circle of "Aww, I'm such a nice guy." "You might not be." "But I am! Really!"

Originally Posted by Mesden

You make jokes using your vote.

Quite a few people did, during random voting. I only remember two such occasions. Three if you count that revote.

Originally Posted by Mesden

You did not seem to be watching out for others as you say, but jump away from the fire as soon as it even gets close to you. You only change your votes AFTER someone fights back

Note I didn't post in between those votes and unvotes. If I had kept on posting and only changed when someone pointed it out, I'd concede your point.

Originally Posted by Mesden

This is the only time you haven't instantly backed away, and I'm thinking it's mainly because it's a massive accusation against you.

I'm thinking it's mainly because the game's more serious now, actual evidence is being cited, I haven't voted yet this round, and I'm backing away as best I can by way of these massive posts.

This has got to be about the longest post I've ever written. Please let it be cohesive and coherent.

[Mesden]

Originally Posted by Skyshot

It was a joke. Did I bandwagon after B_Real? I said we seemed to be at about the point where random voting was getting old. Also, I'm surprised you implied I had an actual gut feeling about IC. Read back over that post. It was a joke about his voting based on gut feelings.

I guess I get to play the "Skyshot is new" card and go with the fact that I never saw you in another game before, so it might've been a real gut feeling. I can understand where this is all a joke, but I'm still saying you joke way too much WITH your vote. If you, say, voted for someone and in the same post unvoted? That'd be better, because you wouldn't be leaving a joke VOTE for someone.

I wasn't trying to reinforce it. I was surprised when it got taken that way. That's when I changed my vote back.

Yes yes yes, which is my problem. You use your vote so carelessly. He had four bandwagon votes on him. A bandwagon that you started with the original intent of a joke, it seems. I can't fullheartedly agree that your vote was so unmeaningful that you needed someone to throw accusations around about how IC was already a third of the way to lynch for you to take it away.

It's just my belief against yours, I suppose. I can't abide that you just took that rapid bandwagon so unseriously. It was out of proportion, especially for day 1.

If this were a live game, that sort of thing in sequence might be the result of not really thinking about it. I don't know when you first read those posts relative to each other, so I assumed you were seeing them more "sequentially" and "streamlined" than they actually were (hey, maybe you didn't), but I had time to think about what happened in between. I wasn't so much concerned with waiting for you.

Yes yes yes, I will get into more NEwb stuff later on with this post.

See, let me go over my voting history in the rounds here. First round, I made those random votes that are being thrown at me. Several people voted for B_Real because he was...come to think of it, doing about the same thing I was. Anyways, I wasn't convinced it was justification for a lynch, so I didn't vote, because I wanted to wait for something more concrete. Sith apparently had a deadline I didn't notice, and B_Real turned out to be a townie.

I can understand where, that by itself is not such a big deal. But your entire vote history leans toward hasty voting without waiting for others. I've got a big problem with that.

Second round, I voted for Newb because he was being so erratic and claiming to be about as valuable as the PO, which looked suspicious to me, because that would guarantee a night death. Then he did his whole "I'm so sorry" spiel, which caught me hook, line, and sinker, and pretended to drop out of the game. I assumed that'd nullify my vote anyways, and since I believed him, I shifted my vote to the person who was most opposed to him, because that was the best thing I had. You were carrying on a long sparring session with him just as you are with me, and openly opposing someone so valuable to the town looked suspicious.

You know, this:

"I shifted my vote to the person who was most opposed to him, because that was the best thing I had."

You didn't have to shift your vote. It's all leading up to something later on I might add...

Then Sith came out and busted Newb. You didn't need to defend yourself against me anymore, because the circumstances provoking my suspicion were gone. I changed my vote to Newb.

HERE. Right here. See that? Big, big problem. See, you shifted your vote so quickly to me before Newb was busted. You, before even giving me a CHANCE to respond to the situation, throw your vote out. I needed to say something about the Newb incident.

No. No, you did NOT give me a chance to respond to it before casting your vote to 'the next best thing'. That's my problem. You seem almost completely unprecautious until something threatens you. Let's go to the voting history, shall we?

IC: You didn't take it off until AFTER someone went about it. Sure, I KNOW it was a joke, but it the grand scheme of things, which is where my argument lies, you didn't bother to stop the already BADLY bandwagon'd joke until threatened.

B_Real: As SOON as he voted back against you, you cut it.

Newb: This one, you didn't get threatened but seemingly tricked out of voting off of him. But as SOON as your vote comes off, you had to vote for someone before they even SAID anything about this massive situation?

You're taking my argument entirely wrong about the timing of your vote for me. I didn't need to defend myself from you AFTER your vote, but from the massive Newb situation BEFORE anyone jumped on me.'

Your history of voting is terribly scummy to me. The WAY you vote and the rate at which you do it strikes me as scummy. I'm not cold out declaring you are scum, as you say...

My statement was not the absolute you made it out to be. Also, you seem to have voted for me. One wonders what to make of that in the context of your arguments here.

Or rather imply here. I can NEVER be absolutely sure that you are scum. It's impossible. This game can NOT have any guarantees. That's the way it works. I just believe that you're the most scummy person to date, so I act on this belief.

This can only go in circles. See the first quote and response in your most recent post.

Okay okay, we already agreed on it. That's why I took it up to respond to what you said. It's fruitless! It's the same situation as the one you just referred to.

You're welcome to look over this thread and notice a few people saying I'm generally nice to people. Maybe I'll decide a more aggressive playstyle suits me in future games. For now, I'm just going with what comes naturally. Seriously, can some third party vouch for/against me here? This is turning into a circle of "Aww, I'm such a nice guy." "You might not be." "But I am! Really!"

It does not matter if you are nice outside of this thread. That can just be something you exploit in here. Understand? I can't possibly take yours or anyone's word about how you are outside of mafia. Honestly, do you think I drive a point this hard outside this thread? Do you think I'm reading over what people say to be as deductive as possible?

Of course not. And that's my point.

Quite a few people did, during random voting. I only remember two such occasions. Three if you count that revote.

Yes, you did it three times. First, a joke. I don't really acknowledge the first vote as scummy. But then you reinforced a bandwagon that was out of control. Really, I can see that that could've been a joke as well, but stacked up with how you quickly bandwagoned on B_Real, another bad situation when it was happening, and quickly dropped off of it because he fought back makes it less believeable.

Then when you side on and off with me and Newb. I've already went over myproblem with that.

Note I didn't post in between those votes and unvotes. If I had kept on posting and only changed when someone pointed it out, I'd concede your point.

Because those votes and revotes were instantly unto each other. B_Real responded directly after you, IIRC. When I went against the IC voters? There was very little time inbetween that and your double vote for IC.

The Newb situation doesn't so much apply to this point, but has its afforementioned problem as well.

I'm thinking it's mainly because the game's more serious now, actual evidence is being cited, I haven't voted yet this round, and I'm backing away as best I can by way of these massive posts.

I can see that, but this only happens once someone forces it so seriously upon you? Come now, Skyshot, that's bad timing.

This has got to be about the longest post I've ever written. Please let it be cohesive and coherent.

Just fine. I hope you're enjoying playing the game. I know I sure as heck like the case v. case thing going on. If there's such thing as OOC, then here: Fun and good exchange, Skyshot.

[Fenris]

*reads whole excange* :O_o:

First off, Mesden, Skyshot is right. This is a circle of "Aww, I'm such a nice guy." "You might not be." "But I am! Really!""

And I'm willing to let Skyshot play the new player card. He's being cautious, a little too cautious, sure, but he's still being cautious. Quite frankly, I think that Skyshot is doing a wonderful job of protecting himself against your barrage of repeating the same thing over and over again and forcing him to come up with more and more defenses to the same points.

I don't like that tactic.

Also, even though it goes against my personal style of play, Skyshot's switching his votes "before somebody comes in and comments on it" is not scummy. He most likely thought that the ordeal was over and done with, so, logically, he went to the next alternative. Also, if I remember right, you voted for Skyshot in the very first post you started to accuse him of something, giving him no initial defense.

My two cents.

[Inbred Chocobo]

I would like to throw in a little bit of food for peeps to think on.

First off, the circular knowledge thingy introduced by I think when Skyshot did the whole "Just the way I play." thing. In truth, its hard to tell who made it degrade into circular knowledge, but by doing so one can effectively remove the arguement from debate, since its simple a choice in the end, and not an actual fact to argue on. So whoever turned that into circular knowledge (or if it was doomed too from the start.) has a substanail chance of being scum for it.

I would also like to address the joking thing in your arguements. I notice that most of Mesden's arguements (might be even all of them) are based on the fact that Skyshot was simply joing for too long. While putting it that simple makes it sound like Mesden's the bad girl, let me point out that laughter is an effective defense, used by myself on times as well. Maybe Skyshot learned that from reading previous games and was trying to employ that tactic now.

It also looks like Skyshot is pushing for the joke defense, that what he did was a joke. Or maybe its Mesden just tearing apart the joke defense used, and now Skyshot is stuck with it or else he will look more scummy. I see Mesden's post that she doesn't like Skyshot's spotty voting record, and yet Skyshot is using the same defense that it was a joke. The more you guys argue about this fact, the more I am having to say that its just giving you guys time to think of better excuses for what you did.

So I will go on with whats already happened, rather than how you argued it, and therefore will...

Vote: Skyshot

[Skyshot]

I can't abide that you just took that rapid bandwagon so unseriously. It was out of proportion, especially for day 1.

I didn't realize it was out of control. I just assumed a four-person random vote thing was harmless and typical. I've only glanced at a few threads before this one, so it didn't occur to me having four of them on a joke-bandwagon was abnormal.

See, you shifted your vote so quickly to me before Newb was busted.

For a second, I felt confused about the chronology when I read that. Now I'm not entirely sure you wrote what you intended to. When Newb was busted, it showed us he was pretty scummy, so it made more sense to vote for him after he was busted. Before he was busted, I thought he was a townie, so I voted for his biggest opponent.

No. No, you did NOT give me a chance to respond to it before casting your vote to 'the next best thing'.

I didn't need to defend myself from you AFTER your vote, but from the massive Newb situation BEFORE anyone jumped on me.

Okay, see, I thought you were referring to the period between my vote for you and my second vote for Newb, not between my first vote for him and my vote for you. In retrospect, that was probably a mistake on my part.

Actually, let's do it this way before further confusion results. Between what events was it when you wanted to respond?

1. I vote for Newb.
2. Newb fake-roleclaims.
3. I change votes from Newb to you.
4. Sithdarth busts Newb's scheme.
5. I change votes from you to Newb.

In any case, I tried to vote in a way that indicated you were the scummiest looking person to me at that moment, which called for you to respond to the current situation with Newb and my vote in one solid defense. Such as "No, really, he was acting scummy," so I could be all, "Well, okay, unvote Mesden, who do we question now?

Honestly, do you think I drive a point this hard outside this thread?

Like I said, right now I'm just going with what comes naturally, and I'll adjust as I see fit later. Did you drive points this hard your first time around?

Anyways, I'm aware pointing out how I usually act is hardly an absolute defense, but it's all I can offer.

Just fine. I hope you're enjoying playing the game. I know I sure as heck like the case v. case thing going on. If there's such thing as OOC, then here: Fun and good exchange, Skyshot.

Yep. I didn't expect defending myself from a murder and possible conspiracy charge to be nearly as much fun as it actually is.

You know, Mom always wanted to see one of her kids grow up to be a lawyer. I need to show her all this.

And for the posters trying to ninja me I'm noticing while previewing my post:

Originally Posted by Inbred Chocobo

So whoever turned that into circular knowledge (or if it was doomed too from the start.) has a substanail chance of being scum for it.

Takes two to tango, really.

Not sure what to say to Fenris, really. All I can think of boils down to "Yeah, that THAT!" which, like a lot of things, won't get us anywhere.

Also, the fact the the two commentators came to different conclusions intrigues me.

[Fenris]

Just noticed this and HAD to comment. =D

Originally Posted by Mesden

Honestly, do you think I drive a point this hard outside this thread?

Yes, yes I do. =D

(Read Mesden's and my posts. Mafia has worn off on us. =D)

[Mesden]

Originally Posted by FenrisWolf

First off, Mesden, Skyshot is right. This is a circle of "Aww, I'm such a nice guy." "You might not be." "But I am! Really!""

Um...that was one point. 1. As in 1 thing that was only part of my main argument. Something which I said also didn't matter, and which to I think he agreed.

And I'm willing to let Skyshot play the new player card.

That is, without a doubt, not acceptable. He's even actually pseudo admitted to reading this game before(He knew of IC's gut feeling obsession).

He's being cautious, a little too cautious, sure, but he's still being cautious.

In my argument, I'm saying how hasty he is and how he turns to, yes, being too cautious. Again, you leave out a point. The point that he is hasty at first.

Quite frankly, I think that Skyshot is doing a wonderful job of protecting himself against your barrage of repeating the same thing over and over again and forcing him to come up with more and more defenses to the same points.

I don't like that tactic.

Yes, because he keeps missing the point. He never addresses the relevance of my argument. He keeps splitting up the reasons I accused him, when it's the whole record that makes my argument. So, until he realizes it's a big picture thing rather than individual acts of scummy, I have to restate my point.

Among other misinterpretations.

Also, even though it goes against my personal style of play, Skyshot's switching his votes "before somebody comes in and comments on it" is not scummy. He most likely thought that the ordeal was over and done with, so, logically, he went to the next alternative.

Hello? Bad situation. And it's his whole record that keeps repeating these kind of things. Not just this one situation, which is bad enough of its own accord.

Also, no, there is no logic in just jumping your vote to the next easiest target. Especially one with a lot of focus instantly shifted on her and before she gets the slightest chance to talk about his(Newb's) post.

So yes, I believe that looking for the easiest vote, against someone that didn't even give their take on the situation at hand, is scummy.

Also, if I remember right, you voted for Skyshot in the very first post you started to accuse him of something, giving him no initial defense.

Um, hello! He had nothing to defend about yet! He wasn't in the spotlight like I was given the Newb Situation! Check Skyshot's admitted viewpoint to the Newb Situation!

He saw Newb do this whole charade and 'believed it'. IN believing it he sees that I had led the charge against him. This had to automatically put spotlight on me, as that's blatantly logical. Now then, I already HAD something to defend against: The Newb Situation. Before my post, Skyshot didn't have a single glance thrown his way.

There's a difference in the accounts. You're construing and vaguing up what happens to make me look bad. Me no likey, but me can damn sure call you on it! =D

Edit: Taking the time to say, after responding to not Skyshot, I need to get this off.

I hate dealing with your font, Skyshot! XD

[Skyshot]

While I wait on you --

Originally Posted by Mesden

He's even actually pseudo admitted to reading this game before(He knew of IC's gut feeling obsession).

Originally Posted by Skyshot

I've only glanced at a few threads before this one

"Glanced" does not mean "read thoroughly and analyzed." I just looked at segments of a few and got a rough understanding of the theory.

So, until he realizes it's a big picture thing rather than individual acts of scummy, I have to restate my point.

Bear in mind, you're assuming from the beginning that I'm scum. If I am indeed scum, that means there's an overall design to my posts which involves "kill all townies." You may now begin speculating as to an alternative reason I would instead take on the individual points, which I am of course implying is the better one. Partly because it means I get to live longer.