The Big Big Thread of Religious Discussion

[Demetrius]

Azisien this may be unmoderated but come on, nobody is name calling and we are at least getting some give and take here, so let's keep this civil.

I am a Christian and I will gladly listen to what you have to say, actually listen, because what you have to say tells a lot about who you are and what you believe. If you make good points I will applaud them, in return I expect the same from you, getting upset because people don't agree with you leads to strokes and social issues.

In the meanwhile why do you think the earth is older? I am of the opinion that the first several days of creation could have been any amount of finite time because time as we know it wasn't introduced until after the third day:

Originally Posted by Bible

14 And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, 15 and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so. 16 God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. 17 God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, 18 to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. 19 And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.

Just my take, many fundamentalists argue against this in favor of the 24 hour day of creation. My way GOD could have been the first cause that started the chain of cause/effect that has brought everything into being.

[Loki, The Fallen]

From Tydeus's keyboard:

Punishment merely because someone has done wrong is not justified. Punishment is only justified if it will produce some beneficial effect as a result.

See, punishment is not merited by the act itself, but as a deterrent to the act among the many, or as a way to instill a deeper fear of actually experiecing the punishment in the punished.

And here the punishment is. For the act of treason, for the disobediance of God, there is one punishment, Eternity in Hell. Wouldn't the threat of 'a real long time in a place that is really uncomfortable' motivate people to follow that rule?

Of course, even that didn't work too well, so He decided to give people another hand.

Time to pull myself out of this sleep phase, and get ready for work, and catch up on what the night-shift has left me.

May the fleas of a thousand Rottweilers infest the nose-hairs of those who follow the infidel Pink Unicorn!

-Edited: Removed an extra 'the' that sneaked in...-

[Azisien]

Azisien this may be unmoderated but come on, nobody is name calling and we are at least getting some give and take here, so let's keep this civil.

Not directly, no, though I am being condemned, in your eyes at least, to eternal damnation because I do not follow your beliefs. So excuse me, and note I didn't even name any names, if I consider quite a few people twisted, sadistic, and downright terrible, for believing in such a thing.

In the meanwhile why do you think the earth is older? I am of the opinion that the first several days of creation could have been any amount of finite time because time as we know it wasn't introduced until after the third day:

I personally believe the Earth is older because I, searching for words other than 'believe' here, trust radio-isotope dating techniques. I trust them because of the literal mountains of evidence, both primary (regarding actual study of radioactivity and half-lives and so on) and secondary (physics and chemistry in general). The evidence is so conclusive we're far and beyond trying to "prove" that these phenomenon are functional, we're off and away into theories that rely on them (such as the solar nebula theory that describes, with moderate deliberation still, how our solar system formed). I even have hands-on evidence for myself, because not only am I trained in physics and science in general to understand all of this "smart people stuff," I've ran my own experiments with radioisotopes to determine the age of various objects.

And stemming from all that, I just have to conclude that the Earth has been around for longer than 6000 years, and even beyond radioisotope dating, the evidence against such a claim is so astronomical my head hurts when I try to sum it all up. Instead I place some comfort in knowing with a pretty good amount of certainty that the Earth is between 4.3 and 4.5 billion years old, the Moon is the same age, and meteorites thought to be a part of the original formation of the solar system are exclusively between 4.53 and 4.58 billion years old.

[Bob The Mercenary]

Alright, commenting on a few things. First of all, I wasn't aware of your loss, Mes. And if you had asked me the same question you asked those priests, the right answer would've been "that's not my call to make". That's no human's call to make to tell you or anyone else where they're going. As has been said, God's supposedly a righteous judge, and would take all facts into account. My mom had a (I don't want to say similar, but significant) experience with a catholic priest. She missed a service one day and she was basically told she was going to Hell. Which is when she converted to Lutheran. The point being, we aren't here to be the judge or jury of people's souls. Again, I'm sorry about your friends, I can't begin to imagine something like that.

On the age of the Earth. I can't provide you with any actual scientific evidence to prove that the world is only a couple thousand years old. In theory, God didn't create a "baby world". He made a mature Earth, shown in his creation of Adam and Eve as adults. So, even with carbon dating, everything could seem millions of years old. Also, the Bible doesn't really leave the seven day creation to much debate. "And there was evening and there was morning, the second day" and so on.

Sorry I can't stay to write more, work calls.

[I_Like_Swordchucks]

Not directly, no, though I am being condemned, in your eyes at least, to eternal damnation because I do not follow your beliefs. So excuse me, and note I didn't even name any names, if I consider quite a few people twisted, sadistic, and downright terrible, for believing in such a thing.

No offense meant here, but if Christianity offends you thats your own problem. If you don't believe in it then you've got nothing to worry about, and what we think doesn't matter because none of us WANT anybody to go to hell, and in fact none of us should say you will go to hell because thats not our call and the Bible itself specifically says that the state of a person's soul is between him and God.

The funny thing is, Christianity is constantly cited as the 'intolerable' people, yet every single Christian on this forum has no trouble tolerating anything. I think many non-Christians are less than willing to tolerate our beliefs though without resorting to referring to us as "religious psychopaths".

There's a clear difference between Truth and Morally Right. Whether or not you believe that Christianity is Truth, it is a lot extreme to say the Christianity is morally wrong. We have a right, just as well as you do, to believe whatever we want to believe. Our rights end where yours begin. We don't have the right to persecute anybody, but neither does anybody else have a right to persecute us. Yet Christianity stands as one of the few things that 'enlightened, tolerant' people refuse to tolerate. I don't know why. I have no issue with anybody being an atheist if they want to be. I think they're wrong (which apparently makes me intolerant), but they think I'm wrong as well and both of us have a right to be wrong so who cares?

But things like comparing a church providing food and shelter to homeless people with a man molesting children (and Locke, its a bit stubborn to say I have no reason to consider that a far out analogy. Because it is) is a bit much. I actually got criticized for CONCEDING a point in this. Organized religion has flaws. Many of our beliefs are incomplete. We don't know everything. How does admitting not knowing everything become a debatable issue?

The thing is, if theists are wrong, and there is no God, then morality becomes nothing more than a social construct and religion is not wrong because right and wrong do not actually exist beyond our perceptions. So therefore, I can believe whatever I want and have no fear of retribution beyond death. If theists are right and there is a God, then morality comes from God, and believing in the existence of God is still not wrong because it would be True.

You can think whatever you want. While its a bit far to say I don't care what you think, I can't and won't shove my beliefs down your throat. Again, its between you and God. But when you try to do the same to us, what makes you any better than what you think we are? If nothing else, it makes you worse because its being hypocritical as well.

And as far as the age of the Earth, I don't really care. As a scientist, I would have to say the Earth is very old, but then again the Bible doesn't say all the days of creation came in a row, or how long Adam was in Eden before he was booted out, or many other things. Adding up people's ages backwards seems to be a misuse of the way the Bible was intended to be used.

[Azisien]

No offense meant here, but if Christianity offends you thats your own problem.

No offense meant here, but if being called a religious psychopath offends you, thats your own problem. Well, that was turned around rather easily.

But, I didn't call you that, now did I. Actually, my comment was hopelessly vague because I don't want to name names. I have a good deal of respect for many of the Christians that have posted here, and for many Christians I know in real life (I went to a Catholic high school, and I've retained many friends from high school who are indeed religious). My comment may apply to religious, okay let's be politically correct here, fundamentalists out in the greater world.

And to put it out there, no, Christianity is not the only religion out there with problems of intolerance. I'd even hazard a guess and say almost every organized religion has that problem, but then I have friends who follow some sects of abrahamic religions that seem rather...nice?

Originally Posted by Bob The Mercenary

On the age of the Earth. I can't provide you with any actual scientific evidence to prove that the world is only a couple thousand years old. In theory, God didn't create a "baby world". He made a mature Earth, shown in his creation of Adam and Eve as adults. So, even with carbon dating, everything could seem millions of years old. Also, the Bible doesn't really leave the seven day creation to much debate. "And there was evening and there was morning, the second day" and so on.

I didn't expect you to provide any scientific evidence because there is none, unfortunately (wait, maybe that isn't unfortunate :p). In theory, there is no religious theory. That term should be left within the realm of science. Your claim is carbon dating "seeming" a certain way is completely unfounded, and I will assume it's an empty one that collapses your argument until you can explain yourself more. Also note, I wasn't just talking about carbon dating, which is why I used "radioisotope" instead. Actually, carbon dating isn't very accurate at all after a fairly short time-scale because their radioisotopes have rapid half-lives.

[Fifthfiend]

Was anyone wondering why nobody in their right mind wants the job of moderating the religious discussion?

Not directly, no, though I am being condemned, in your eyes at least, to eternal damnation because I do not follow your beliefs.

I think that pretty much covers it, right there.

[Krylo]

Originally Posted by KP

There are some who theorize that we have already created universes, albeit accidentally, in particle accelerators and the like.

And in one of these universes wherein time flows faster than it does here, people (if, indeed, they can be called that) are, right now, tapping away furiously at their keyboards debating the existence of their creator, and how loving he or she may be. People are strapping bombs to themselves claiming it to be the word of God. People are killing each other in holy wars, and commiting irrevocable acts of violence on each other all on the word of 'God'.

Yet we, their creators, aren't even conscience of their existence.

Extremely amusing reversal.

Originally Posted by Fifth

I think that pretty much covers it, right there.

But not only am I moderator, I'm also a GOD... or at least I will be once I get my hands on a particle accelerator and some of those theories.

[Fifthfiend]

But not only am I moderator, I'm also a GOD... or at least I will be once I get my hands on a particle accelerator and some of those theories.

To my imagining an honest-to-goodness God would be even less interested in trying to moderate a religious discussion.

[POS Industries]

Originally Posted by fifthfiend

To my imagining an honest-to-goodness God would be even less interested in trying to moderate a religious discussion.

And that pretty much sums up my entire belief structure as it applies to the metaphysical.

Sure, I'm willing to accept the existance of a God, but that in no way changes the fact that the world runs the way it does and it's best to just go on living the way you feel is best. Never liked the idea of life on Earth being nothing more than an audition for some nice little condo overlooking the beach of the afterlife. Worry about this life, where you are now, where you're going in the next few years, what your and other people's kids and grandkids have to deal with on this planet. You want to accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior, that's your business, but there's still shit to be done here, which as I recall was what Jesus was going on about in the first place before they nailed him to a tree for saying how great it would be if everyone started being nice to each other for a change.

That, and I'm pretty sold on reincarnation, so it'd be great if people focused less on heaven and/or hell, and more on Earth because I'm fairly sure I'm gonna be here for quite a bit longer.