Another Big Big Thread of Religious Discussion

[I_Like_Swordchucks]

Wow... I leave for a week and freedom of speech issues suddenly turns into the legitimacy of Christianity as a religion. Gee, thanks for proving me wrong guys. You are all off the christmas list. Except for fifthfiend cuz he's cool and appeared to agree with my initial assessment of 'not really a religiousy topic'.

Well, while we're in the Big Big Thread...

Originally Posted by Gorefiend

Well, Jesus never claimed to be God, nor do we believe it was spelled out as such in the Gospels

What about in John 8:56-58?

Originally Posted by John 8:56-58

"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day, and he saw it and was glad." "Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, before Abraham was I am.

That was total blasphemy in Jewish tradition. First of all, he claimed to be eternal. Second of all, he claimed the name of God (I am) that was given to Moses in Exodus. That seems to be a pretty blatant claim of divinity to me.

Originally Posted by Sithdarth

Original Christianity was about personal salvation through leading a good life. This good life included being extremely active and helpful in the community and such. I mean there was a big avoiding sin thing but that wasn't enough. One had to do honest work supporting his family and neighbors.

No, I think you completely missed the point of original Christianity. Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the father but through me." Isaiah wrote 500 years earlier "he was wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquities... by his stripes we are healed."

Peter in his first sermon answered the question 'what must we do to be saved?' with 'repent'.... not 'live a good life'.

The good life was in response to salvation, not the cause of it. The thief who died on the cross next to Jesus was saved by a simple prayer of repentance, certainly not because of any good deeds he had done. The Bible is pretty clear that salvation only comes through Jesus, and that nothing we can do as people is good enough to gain salvation on our own power because we're all sinners. We're supposed to live the good life pleasing to God in order to show thanks and adoration for the salvation we have already received.

You can believe that Christianity is wrong all you want, but saying that the original Christian belief was all about living a good life is completely and utterly untrue.

[Sithdarth]

No, I think you completely missed the point of original Christianity. Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No man comes to the father but through me." Isaiah wrote 500 years earlier "he was wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquities... by his stripes we are healed."

Peter in his first sermon answered the question 'what must we do to be saved?' with 'repent'.... not 'live a good life'.

The good life was in response to salvation, not the cause of it. The thief who died on the cross next to Jesus was saved by a simple prayer of repentance, certainly not because of any good deeds he had done. The Bible is pretty clear that salvation only comes through Jesus, and that nothing we can do as people is good enough to gain salvation on our own power because we're all sinners. We're supposed to live the good life pleasing to God in order to show thanks and adoration for the salvation we have already received.

You can believe that Christianity is wrong all you want, but saying that the original Christian belief was all about living a good life is completely and utterly untrue.

I hate to say it but pulling from the Bible isn't the best way to determine what early Christianity was all about. The entire thing was written generations after his supposed life. It also ignored writings from some of his key disciples like Mary Magdalen. The writings that have been uncovered from that time always insist that salvation can be had on ones own through simple faith and a good life. This actually makes sense considering early Christianity was basically just Judaism except that Jesus did not like the whole power structure.

Besides Jesus himself didn't expect to die for the sins of humanity until Judas exercised his free will and betrayed him. Why would his original teachings contain references to salvation through his death.

[Bob The Mercenary]

Originally Posted by Sithdarth

Besides Jesus himself didn't expect to die for the sins of humanity until Judas exercised his free will and betrayed him. Why would his original teachings contain references to salvation through his death.

"Returning the third time, he said to them, "Are you still sleeping and resting? Enough! The hour has come. Look, the Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners. Rise! Let us go! Here comes my betrayer!"" Mark 14:41-42

He knew that Judas would betray him beforehand. It also says way back in Genesis, when God's talking to Satan. He says something along the lines of "You will strike his heal, but he will crush your head." In reference to Jesus defeating Satan outright, but having to die in the process.

[P-Sleazy]

I'm just gonna say that Jesus did foreshadow it several times before Judas betrayed them. I can't bring up any verses, but it was forshadowed several times. Its one of the things that the aposltes didn't realize what he was talking about until it was too late.

[Bob The Mercenary]

Originally Posted by B_real_shadows

I'm just gonna say that Jesus did foreshadow it several times before Judas betrayed them. I can't bring up any verses, but it was forshadowed several times. Its one of the things that the aposltes didn't realize what he was talking about until it was too late.

You just reminded me of the "I will destroy this temple and rebuild it in three days" verse. That also foreshadowed his death and resurrection.

[Ryanderman]

I hate to say it but pulling from the Bible isn't the best way to determine what early Christianity was all about. The entire thing was written generations after his supposed life. It also ignored writings from some of his key disciples like Mary Magdalen. The writings that have been uncovered from that time always insist that salvation can be had on ones own through simple faith and a good life. This actually makes sense considering early Christianity was basically just Judaism except that Jesus did not like the whole power structure.

The four gospels were not written "generations" after he lived. They were all written within a few decade of Christ's life by people who either directly witnessed the events described, or who interviewed those who witnessed the events. The book of John was written by Jesus's best friend and closest disciple. Luke was written by a doctor, and traveling companion of Paul. Luke did extensive research into Jesus's life, and talked to people who had known Jesus before writing his book.

The letters describing basic Christian theology have been authenticated, in modern times, as having been written by contemporaries of Christ. Mostly Paul, Peter, & John.

The books & letters were compiled later on and put together in one volume, but they were written in the time of Christ.

[I_Like_Swordchucks]

Originally Posted by Sithdarth

I hate to say it but pulling from the Bible isn't the best way to determine what early Christianity was all about. The entire thing was written generations after his supposed life.

As said before, each individual book was only written a few years after his death. Sure, the format of the Bible as a compilation of these books was centuries later, but the actual words were not.

I also quoted Isaiah, which was written centuries beforehand.

If you consider the fact that the whole thing was prophesied about in the old Testament, and Jesus' direct words, its pretty easy to see what Christianity was about. You might think the Bible isn't a good source to figure out Christianity (which actually amusing when I think about it), but at least I have a credible source which is directly related TO Christianity. Your claim of what Christianity is supposedly about seems to be nothing more than opinion as you clearly have no statements from Jesus or any of the other early Christian leaders to back it up.

And since the Bible is really the only source of the subject at hand, I'm going to have to take that as being more likely to be right than you. Sorry.

Also... Jesus didn't know he was going to die? Seriously? Even though he predicted it like 8 times beforehand?

[Fifthfiend]

Originally Posted by I_Like_Swordchucks

Except for fifthfiend cuz he's cool and appeared to agree with my initial assessment of 'not really a religiousy topic'.

Upon review I should have just punted every post from Aerozord's onward into BBR and let the thread itself stand.

Actually come to that, I can still just break out the posts from the original thread prior to Az's and have them back as a separate thread. There weren't all that many, I"ll just do that.

[Sithdarth]

The letters describing basic Christian theology have been authenticated, in modern times, as having been written by contemporaries of Christ. Mostly Paul, Peter, & John.

Except for the fact found the original first hand writing of other contemporaries when they found the dead sea scrolls. Namely one written by Mary Magdalen and one by another person that escapes me that places Mary as the most important disciple of Jesus. These scrolls generally contradict the traditional doctrine of the church in needing anyone else for salvation.

The Bible itself may have been complied from actual letters and second hand accounts but only a very small fraction of them. A very small fraction composed together by Roman Emperors you saw Christianity as their last hope to stay in power. Roman Emperors that tried their damnedest to smash Christianity and Greek/Roman mythology together. That's the Christianity in the Bible not the one that Jesus would have been teaching. Assuming I was inclined to believe in either. Hell even the chosen gospels aren't internally consistent we don't even know the name of the 12 apostle and some of the dead sea scrolls, and the gospels that were knowingly discarded, dispute this number. The Bible isn't the proper historical record it pretends to be especially around the time of Jesus. If any other book was compiled in the same manner as the Bible no one would put any stock at all in its total veracity.

[Ryanderman]

Where do you get the information that they found the gospel of Mary with the dead sea scrolls? I've never heard that, and I can't find any evidence of that anywhere. From what I've read in studying this a few years ago, the gospel of Mary has been pretty thouroughly debunked as being authenticly written by Mary, or anyone close to her or Jesus.