Nice guys finish last?

[Darth SS]

Speaking as what most of my friends (largely female) refer to as a nice guy...

People say I finish last. By their perceptions, I do. By mine, I don't. I'm not being nice for a relationship. I'm not being nice to get laid. I'm not being nice to get the big flocks of girls. Hell, most people would say I'm not even being nice most of the time.

Here's the difference: The two rants by "nice-guys" are by people who want to be rewarded for kindess. They give the girl what they want, when they want it, then act affronted like there's some sort of debt.

Me? I don't want to be rewarded. I also don't give people what they want, or tell them what they want to hear. Hell, I don't listen and just nod my head. I tell them what they need to hear, and I help them deal with their problem. Is there a debt? No. Why? I think of it as a public service. With all the crap that happens between the lives of everyone I know (keeping in mind that I'm 16, and surrounded by idiocy) they need something they know isn't going to change. It's a public service, not a loan.



So, overall: Do nice guys finish last? Only the ones who are gunning for placement.

[Witness1]

Its all about confidence.

[squall2933]

Wow. This topic really took off and left me behind, didn't it?

I agree with most of what you guys have to say. I don't feel that a lack of romantic interest has anything to do with them being "bitches" or that they're "stupid", I really just feel that the "nice guy" doesn't present himself as date-able material. If you're really tired of being caught in the "friend zone", go out and find some females that you aren't friends with. And yeah, maybe some of them will place you in the "friend zone", but after all, what's the harm in having a few more friends? If you really care about them, you'd understand that they just want to be your friend.

I guess my main frustration at this point is that when I was with Kristine, I had girls interested in me left and right. Well, not really left and right, but I still had quite a few wanting to pursue a romantic relationship or maybe even just to have sex. I, of course, did nothing with any of them, and never really even thought about it. The thing is, though, now that Kristine and I are no longer together, all that interest is gone. Maybe there's some sort of "forbidden fruit" philosophy there. Then again, a friend of mine made a good point, which I'm going to generalize in the next paragraph or so.

At the beginning of the school year last year, I looked good. I took care of myself, I styled my hair regularly, I in general cared about how I looked. When Kristine and I broke up (for the second time out of three), that all stopped. I didn't cut my hair, I didn't shave, I didn't do any of the things that I should have been doing to take care of myself. And that's when the interest stopped. And I know where this is going, someone's going to say "Well if a girl isn't shallow, she'll see past it and know that you're a really nice guy" But it goes beyond that. If you don't love yourself or care for yourself enough to take care of your body, how can you expect anyone else to do that for you? In other words, if you don't respect yourself enough to move on with your life and go out looking for a person to spend your time with, then they're not going to come find you, either.

However, I must say, I was kinda looking forward to some analysis on my last post, mostly about my friend's theory on relationships. Hopefully a few of you will read back and tell me what you think about my post in general.

However, I'm going to end this post, as it's running long and I've run out of things to say. Thank you for smacking some proverbial sense into me and helping me get over this slump in my life.

As a side note, not that any of you would be, but if anyone's interested on more backstory of Kristine and I, more of it can be found on my weblog. Although it's not the entire story, it's a good portion of it. Or at least some things that could make you understand it a little better.

Anyway, now that that's over with, I bid you adieu until the next time I check this thread and notice that it has been closed because it's full.
~TJ

[RagetheWarrior]

Darth SS - your post was like looking in a..well, reading a written mirror. whatever. I try to live like that as much as possible. And when girls leave as quickly as they came, I move on too. I know I can't understand them, so why bother? Sure, it hurts for a few days, a week, then everything seems to become normal. Life goes on and I almost feel stupid for it.

[GARUD]

Oh, Dear.
It just described me exactly. Both of them. How did they know?

I hate being at the wrong end of the candle. Sure, I like being nice and all but it makes my life go backwards. Technically nice guys are supposed to go forwards in life, always. Reality though, says alot of different things. All the guys at my school act gay and touch each others groins, they torment everyone else including the girls, yet all of them have girlfriends. Some have had more than one at the same time. There are only two nice guys at our school. Me and my friend. Thats it. There are 16 girls, and two of us. neither has a girlfriend and baisically we are what they call "Husband Material".

Those assholes need a swift kick to the head. Followed by a fatal mob stabbing. That will put some sense into them.

[Crodevillian Team]

Here's a tip, straight from an anonymous source inside Modtown. Oh, wait. I've used that one already. Well, I suppose it's about time anyway. My anonymous source is Mark Felt.

I mean me. Anyway, I have devised a theory that the Nice Guys Finish Last theory sucks. To support this theory, I spent several hours in the library yesterday conducting reserch, and have since created this diagram.

With that business out of the way, I have this cute little saying that I like to use every now and then. The jingle's even better, but as I have no means of recording it, please use your imagination:

"'Nice Guys' are creepy!"

Please note the use of ' marks that denotes a specialized use of the term 'Nice Guys.' That's because there are two types of "Nice Guys."

First, there's Nice Guys; the average guy who cares about people [read: this includes women], isn't afraid to joke around, and who more or less can forge a solid relationship.

Then there's 'Nice Guys'; they're creepy!

I'll do my best to explain the reasoning behind this, but I can't guarantee that the message will be delivered to the appropriate address. 'Nice Guys' often expect that because they're nice, women will lay themselves across a table and have a case of Red Bull on hand for every visit. They often feel that, because they're nice, they're automatically The Best Boyfriend in the Widest of Worlds. They often believe that the twenty four bouquets of roses they sent every day for the past week to the girl next door will result in a night-time nightie-clad visit.

This isn't to say that 'Nice Guys' are only motivated by sex, but it sure as heck seems like it. Otherwise, they wouldn't be complaining. After all, with the amount of ears they lend, shoulders they offer, hugs they give and gifts they buy, they seem to have plenty of female friends.

There's such a thing as romance, and it works wonders in a relationship, but by the same token, there's such a thing as too much. There's a difference between kindness and worship, doting and blood sacrifice ; "Yes, your highness. I'm sorry, your highness. I cut myself and brought you another round of gifts, your highness." Even I, a man, motivated by alcohol, cleavage, explosions and large machines, would be creeped out if Adriana Lima herseslf came at me with a beer, a bikini, a bomb and a bulldozer but that kind of attitude. Certainly, I imagine most girls would feel the same way if a man acted in that manner.

There's some handsome guys out there who have just as much difficulty finding a girlfriend as Uncle Fester, and there are some Wolf Boys out there dating supermodels. The thing is, there's more to attraction than being 'nice.'

If all it took to "get" a girlfriend was to listen to their problems and offer advice, then every therapist in the world would sit on their thrones of gold, laughing at Johnny Depp as they order another dance from The Harem.

Don't listen to your "friends" complain if you don't want to listen.
Don't put up a front and expect people to love you for it.
Don't give expecting to get.
Don't act like a doormat, as it's been said, and expect people to find you attractive.

'Nice Guys' allow people to take advantage of them, and then get mad when they do. It's nonsense. It's a bitter martyr complex. "I walked three miles in the rain to get you Ben and Jerry's when you didn't ask for it, and now you won't date me! You are a terrible person!"

It's ridiculous and selfish to expect girls to like you because you're nice to them. Girls are people; they're not items to be taken off the shelf, they're not dolls to be played with, they're not predisposed to like you, and they surely aren't obligated to like you because you bought them a silver necklace, glass slippers, ten carnations, and a new bike.

What was said about confidence was right on the money. Instead of being 'nice,' try being Nice, Confident, Funny, Easy Going, and Talented. The best thing you can do is respect yourself, be confident in who you are, and keep a positive attitude. With an outlook like that, there's a Jarmela in Sweden, a Shaiza in Mexico, a Sarah in Canada, a Michiko in Japan, and a Jeff in Idaho who's dying to meet you.

[Steel Shadow]

Ok, I'm going to try to put a few things straight. I can't speak for everyone, but I sure as hell can speak for me. I consider myself to be a nice guy, but I lack confidence. I have no idea how to approch a girl and ask her out just like that. I don't expect girls to throw themselves at me for being nice, but I do expect to at least be treated decently for it. I don't mean date or anything, just a thank you or something, y'know? But I get insulted by pretty much everyone for being such a loser. That's disapointing, but I can live with it. People are idiots at my age. Still, I have never had a girlfriend. This isn't a case of I could get one if I accepted their advances, or I constantly demand that they date me, its a case of I'm terified of rejection. Stupid, I know, but I still gots it. I do want a girlfriend, because I'm a guy. Not for sex particulary, I just want to have one. It's insulting to say we're driven by need for sex, it's mainly hormones. I mean, different hormones.
I think it's the same with most nice people out there. Shyness is one of the causes of "nice guy" syndrome. And no one wants to be alone, do they?

[RaiRai]

Originally Posted by Rhyos

<_< And on another note, why do more guys hit on me than Ladies? :thief:

'cause you are the hottness where the mens are concerned. Don't knock it! I'd love to be hit on by some attractive females, but it ain't gonna happen.

And I don't have much to add here apart from the fact that the term 'nice guy' is usually used by guys who are shot down. True, guys may have been dumped for someone who, in their opinion, aren't as nice - but some girls leave guys for other guys who are better for them.

I had my second boyfriend use that line on me, and I'm with Shiney now. A nice guy. My previous boyfriend was a nice guy too, but we had nothing in common and we weren't comminucating. It's not about being nice. It's about being right for one another.

[Staizer]

I don't expect girls to throw themselves at me for being nice, but I do expect to at least be treated decently for it. I don't mean date or anything, just a thank you or something, y'know? But I get insulted by pretty much everyone for being such a loser. That's disapointing, but I can live with it.

Steel, my question is simple, Why? Why would you do things for people that obviously, or so your paragraph states, don't respect you? Why would you want to end up with a woman who will treat you just like all these so-called friends have treated you?

You know what I do in order to convince myself to talk to someone new? The first thought that always goes through my head is, "Well, I'll never see them again, so it's not like it would hurt to say hi." Sometimes I will walk up to a woman and say hey, or ask some question to which they look like they might be knowledgeable, or make some funny comment (It depends on the situation and how I am feeling) and they laugh, or answer, and we have a discussion, then I walk away. No asking for phone numbers, no saying, "Hey, wanna hang out sometime?" No, that's for dorks, and people that want to get in other people's pants. A little later I will go back and This is where you ask the question. Mainly emails actually, much less personal, safer. Or I may not go back and just see them later somewhere else and continue the association from there. By not acting desperate (i.e. trying to speed things up), you act more confident (i.e. taking your time, going slow, knowing what comes, comes).

But at other times, I will make my funny joke, and the girl will sniff and turn away, this is when I tell myself that she wouldn't have been a good friend anyway. If she spends time paying attention to me, then she is a friend, and if she doesn't, she isn't. That is what friends do, PAY ATTENTION not because it is tedious, or because you are obliged, but because you actually care about what is happening in their life.

Obviously men and women are built differently (as far as their feelings and emotions)

Celes said this, and honestly, I don't know if I really believe that anymore . . . Maybe I'm just different from most guys, I don't think so, but maybe. Anyway, guys are taught not to have emotions, and women are taught to have emotions. Most guys fail miserably to not have emotions, as this thread points out, but if guys were to accept their emotions, and treat them as an ally, then really they are no different, emotionally, from a woman. Most of these stereotypes, it seems, are created by the "Nice Guys" or their female counterpart to keep the mystery there so they don't have to take the blame for their own mistakes. I am not saying that Celes is trying to promote this, I am merely saying that to say it makes it true, and if it is true then men and women will never understand each other because they are "different." If you say to yourself "She rejected me because she is a woman," then that builds in your mind that all women will reject you. Instead we should think, "She rejected me because I wasn't right for her." Which builds in our minds that because she rejected us, she wasn't right for us, just as we weren't right for her. It also tells us that in the future we may be right for her. It all depends on the situation and how people's lives are going.

Half a year ago I wasn't even ready for a relationship, meaning if I had had one it would have fallen apart like corn bread. Now I feel like I could have one, so I am willing to give it a chance, unlike in the past, when I couldn't.

Time heals all wounds and calms all hearts.

[Bosolai]

I don't know too much about relationships. I've only been in two, one lasted 3 weeks and the other is 2 months and going. I've been the 'Nice Guy' type before, but that never worked. Now, being the nice guy and not the 'Nice Guy' does. The main difference between being a nice guy and a 'nice guy' (IMO) is that the 'nice guy' endures, expects everything he wants, and gets nothing, while the true nice guy enjoys, expects nothing, and gets everything he needs to be happy and then some.

Now, I don't have any relationship stories other than "I was a 'nice guy' and got nowhere" yet over here "I was a nice guy and got a good long-term friend", but since I think this rule applies in general, I'll share two separate stories from the social interaction I'm best at, and thats MMORPGs.

Back in the day when I played FFXI, I was a white mage for all of the perks. I would heal people randomly and teleport people so I could later guilt them into doing stuff for me. It wasn't me being a philanthropic guy, it was me hoping that a heal here and there would save me time looking for help fighting Ifrit. Whenever I powerleveled people for money, it was horribly boring and I usually left early yet expected to be repayed even though I said "nah, I don't need it." I was a very bitter white mage with serious issues. I had friends, but not many who would go out of their way to do things for me. That was me being a 'Nice Guy'.

Now, on WoW, I'm a Warlock. A short while back, I was about to leave an area that was just a pain to both find and get to. Not necessarily guarded by tough mobs, but just takes a while. When I saw in general chat a guy asking where to find the place, I just invited him and summoned him cause I didn't want anyone to go through that. Recently, I got a VERY hard quest for a super amazing summon (infernal), and asked in general chat for some help. The guy remembered what I did and he soloed the whole quest for me. Not only did that catch me off guard, but I got myself a spiffy new summon. Being a nice guy really paid off. Neither did I finish last, but I also finished best.

Comparing the two scenarios, I'd say the actions are of about equivalent helpfulness to others. The 'Nice Guy' probably went a little more out of his way, but the nice guy certainly didn't need to waste any time, mana, or a soul shard to save time for some stranger he thought he'd never meet again. The 'Nice Guy' hoped for more than he could get, and as natural only came out bitter and disappointed. The nice guy hoped for nothing, and came out suprised and joyous. Anyway, thats my view on the nice guy / 'Nice Guy' thing.

Although it may be off-topic for the relationships I guess, the thread itself is "Nice guys finish last?" so I thought it appropriate.