One Racist to Rule Them All - Page 3

AnonCastillo · 12-31-2003, 07:47 AM

I've actually heard that the book was an allegory of the cold war, and of how everyone thought the cold war would end. Supposedly, the first war with Sauron represented world war 2. The humans not destroying the ring represented the west's embrace of nuclear technology. Sauron's hold over the ring was supposed to represent the Communist theft of nuclear technology (it's pronounces nukular

). The eastern people were supposed to represent Russia and China, the two Communist powers. while the south was supposed to represent the third world people whose newly formed governments were turning to Communist nations for support.
I dunno, though. It seems kind of off to me.

GreatSageCorban · 12-31-2003, 07:51 AM

Quote:

I live here, you live there, GGRRR! Bush-esque thinking

Will politics have to enter every single friggin discussion? Jesus H Christ.

In the world we live in you're going to find people who think they know everything. They'll make grande accusations, and remarks about subjects they know little about. I think we'll soon come to a time when we will not be able to say what we think, and mean what we say. Instead we'll have to consider every angle of every sentence, Just to defend ourselves from people like Mr Hart.

By the way everyone make sure you have a Happy RamaHanuKwanzMas, and a Great New Year.

(Oh No, I forgot Budists! I'm Sued!)

Muffin Mage · 12-31-2003, 09:31 AM

In order:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dante

Alternate Brit mythology? perhaps the Matrix magus could enlighten us?

In most of Tolkien's biographies, the authors state that Tolkien wished to create an alternate history and/or mythology for Britain, which didn't have one. This idea was taken from his journals and letters, and confirmed by his son Christopher.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ih8stupidppl

Middle-Earth IS Europe.

You're right, up to a point. Endor (the name of Io's creation, which happens to be a planet) is Earth. Of course, that would make Valinost America. And there would have to be lands far to the east and south that aren't mentioned.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikorlias Zard

the creation story bears a strong resemblance to the common Bible one.

That is because, if you haven't noticed, all creation myths are just about the same. "Supreme being comes along. Poof! lesser beings. Poof! stuff."

By the way, that resemblance only lasts for the first two chapters or so. If you've read the Silmarillion, you'd know that the Ainur decide to split, some comforting Io, some ruling the world, and some aiding the rulers. And Melkor. Those who rule are the Valar, and those who serve them are the Maiar (Gandalf, Saruman, and Sauron are Maiar).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Also Mikorlias Zard

What I find worst is the blatant and utter sexism

The books were written in a medieval-type setting, if the swords and archaic language didn't tip you off. In the "Middle" middle ages, i.e. the Crusades, women embroidered and had babies. Unless they were peasants, in which case they were just about equal to men in responsibilities (farming). The books aren't sexist so much as being period-correct.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnonCastillo

I've actually heard that the book was an allegory of the cold war

Tolkien and his estate have always denied vociferously the idea that the Lord of the Rings was allegorical for any event.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AnonCastillo

It seems kind of off to me.

Tolkien felt the same way.

Hooray for knowing too much about Tolkein and the Lord of the Rings!

Neverwhere · 01-01-2004, 06:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muffin Mage

That is because, if you haven't noticed, all creation myths are just about the same. "Supreme being comes along. Poof! lesser beings. Poof! stuff."

By the way, that resemblance only lasts for the first two chapters or so. If you've read the Silmarillion, you'd know that the Ainur decide to split, some comforting Io, some ruling the world, and some aiding the rulers. And Melkor. Those who rule are the Valar, and those who serve them are the Maiar (Gandalf, Saruman, and Sauron are Maiar).

Not to mention the Surmilion (i can NEVER spell that right.. u know what i mean though) was almost completely rewritten by Tolkien's son after his death. That book was one Tolkien had been working on since the beginning of his series, but never felt he had enough content nor the correct means of connecting it all together. If you read it some parts 'sound' like Tolkien, while others dont. Though, I guess you have to be a real nerd to be able to determine what style of writing isnt Tolkiens

Still, its there. Furthermore, the whole reference to the army of the west part is quite ludicris, considering Peter Jackson (who I might add had quite a bit of poetic license in his movies) is Australian. Damn it - its late and I cant spell. Puuh.

Mikorlias Zard · 01-01-2004, 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muffin Mage quoting me

the creation story bears a strong resemblance to the common Bible one.

Please don't put words into my mouth. That was Ih8stupidppl, not me. I only said...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Me

It's true that Middle-Earth does have roots in reality and other mythology and even the Bible.

Just thought I'd set the record straight.

Also...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muffin Mage quoting also me

What I find worst is the blatant and utter sexism

I said after that...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Me again

although that may simply be due to the fact that, in the sort time the book is set (and indeed, to some extent, when the book was written) women were almost universally regarded as inferior, and never got to do any fighting or anything like that.

Which Muffin Mage may have taken a moment to read and consider before writing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muffin Mage

The books were written in a medieval-type setting, if the swords and archaic language didn't tip you off. In the "Middle" middle ages, i.e. the Crusades, women embroidered and had babies. Unless they were peasants, in which case they were just about equal to men in responsibilities (farming). The books aren't sexist so much as being period-correct.

Mikorlias Zard

Sky Warrior Bob · 01-01-2004, 08:32 AM

Personally, I think this is a simple case of over analyzing. I think Tolkien may very well have based the various races & characters on existing cultures and peoples, but I don't think he was insinuating anything by it.

I mean, he didn't want a faceless, mindless enemy and went on to create races & cultures using examples that he was familar with. Sure, he could have gone the politically correct way of trying to develop entirely new cultures, so as not to offend anyone, but it'd be a whole lot of bother, and might have ruined the story.

SWB

Illuminatus · 01-01-2004, 10:45 AM

Hey! Dammit MuffinMage, if you're gonna pick apart my post at least acknowledge that its me!

Still, Muffin is right, I should have been more specific. All those things are limited in their applicability. Middle-Earth is Europe, Numenor is Atlantis and so, to an extent. Same goes for the creation story. After Iluvatar/God casts Melkor/Lucifer out of the heavens, the resemblance ends.

Hmm...this thread is a wee bit off topic.

Dante · 01-01-2004, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sky Warrior Bob

Personally, I think this is a simple case of over analyzing. I think Tolkien may very well have based the various races & characters on existing cultures and peoples, but I don't think he was insinuating anything by it.

I mean, he didn't want a faceless, mindless enemy and went on to create races & cultures using examples that he was familar with. Sure, he could have gone the politically correct way of trying to develop entirely new cultures, so as not to offend anyone, but it'd be a whole lot of bother, and might have ruined the story.

SWB

I guess all this goes to show that you can find evidence for anything if you search hard enough.

01-02-2004, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Muffin Mage

You're right, up to a point. Endor (the name of Io's creation, which happens to be a planet) is Earth. Of course, that would make Valinost America. And there would have to be lands far to the east and south that aren't mentioned.

Endor = Planet from Star Wars Universe
E� / Arda = World in which Middle-Earth is main continent

Io = Greco-roman god (can't recall who) and also major god in the Discworld, also name of a small moon that revolves around Jupiter
Eru Illuvatar = Creator-God-Guy in Tolkien's universe

Valinost = ???
Valinor = Blessed land in E�.

Land in the east = Rh�n
Lands in the south = Near Harad, Far Harad, Umbar, Khand, and more.

I had other more serious points but I forgot them. probably because other people already answered them (or simply cause I'm tired and sick. =\)

Illuminatus · 01-02-2004, 06:42 PM

Endor= BOTH

I have my Middle-Earth atlas right here. The sphere itself is Endor (Middle-Earth)

Valinost=Valinor

Yup. Just another couple of names that mean the same thing.

You're right about Io. Dunno bout that. Ilu, Eru, Iluvatar, but not Io.

Come on Blasphemous, do you REALLY think that you know more than me and MuffinMage?

01-01-2004, 08:32 AM	#26
Sky Warrior Bob bOB iZ brOkeN Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: It's a nice place to visit... Posts: 3,755	Personally, I think this is a simple case of over analyzing. I think Tolkien may very well have based the various races & characters on existing cultures and peoples, but I don't think he was insinuating anything by it. I mean, he didn't want a faceless, mindless enemy and went on to create races & cultures using examples that he was familar with. Sure, he could have gone the politically correct way of trying to develop entirely new cultures, so as not to offend anyone, but it'd be a whole lot of bother, and might have ruined the story. SWB __________________ :bmage: Because breakdancing is evil, and so am I, you will click on this link: The power of evil compels you... You are in error. No one is screaming. Thank you for your cooperation. Yes I know the breakdancing BM link doesn't work, and I don't care.

01-01-2004, 10:45 AM	#27
Illuminatus The Dread Pirate Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Where the wild things are Posts: 1,310	Hey! Dammit MuffinMage, if you're gonna pick apart my post at least acknowledge that its me! Still, Muffin is right, I should have been more specific. All those things are limited in their applicability. Middle-Earth is Europe, Numenor is Atlantis and so, to an extent. Same goes for the creation story. After Iluvatar/God casts Melkor/Lucifer out of the heavens, the resemblance ends. Hmm...this thread is a wee bit off topic. __________________ Man, n. An animal so lost in rapturous contemplation of what he thinks he is as to overlook what he indubitably ought to be. His chief occupation is the extermination of other animals and his own species, which, however, multiplies with such insistent rapidity as to infest the whole habitable earth and Canada. -Ambrose Bierce's Devil's Dictionary

01-02-2004, 06:42 PM	#30
Illuminatus The Dread Pirate Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Where the wild things are Posts: 1,310	Endor= BOTH I have my Middle-Earth atlas right here. The sphere itself is Endor (Middle-Earth) Valinost=Valinor Yup. Just another couple of names that mean the same thing. You're right about Io. Dunno bout that. Ilu, Eru, Iluvatar, but not Io. Come on Blasphemous, do you REALLY think that you know more than me and MuffinMage? __________________ Man, n. An animal so lost in rapturous contemplation of what he thinks he is as to overlook what he indubitably ought to be. His chief occupation is the extermination of other animals and his own species, which, however, multiplies with such insistent rapidity as to infest the whole habitable earth and Canada. -Ambrose Bierce's Devil's Dictionary

12-31-2003, 07:47 AM	#21
AnonCastillo Heathen Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 268	I've actually heard that the book was an allegory of the cold war, and of how everyone thought the cold war would end. Supposedly, the first war with Sauron represented world war 2. The humans not destroying the ring represented the west's embrace of nuclear technology. Sauron's hold over the ring was supposed to represent the Communist theft of nuclear technology (it's pronounces nukular ). The eastern people were supposed to represent Russia and China, the two Communist powers. while the south was supposed to represent the third world people whose newly formed governments were turning to Communist nations for support. I dunno, though. It seems kind of off to me.