Is there a prison big enough for Tony Blair's ego?

[Sifright]

TLDR: To compare the complexities of wartime decision-making to a serial killer or a serial rapist intentionally choosing to kill or rape someone is ridiculous. And unless evidence comes out that reveals that Tony Blair in fact was eagerly anticipating his decisions leading to countless deaths of innocent Iraqis, I'll continue to feel that way.

Hey guys I think snake doesn't seem to understand that colatoral damage is inevitable when you invade a country.

Edit: Yo, saddam and civilians don't mine me I'm just parking my battalians of tanks on top of your cars, an storing my bombs in your houses? You all cool with that? Excellent. oh an I'm also going to build a huge ass oil pipeline so can take me some black gold, awwww yea

I love how you trivialise their culpability for a war they started by trying to say they had Hard complex decisions to make "TO start a war of aggression for money or not HMMM DIFFICULT."

[Solid Snake]

Oh shit, apparently I forgot how Sifright was incapable of engaging in rational, levelheaded conversation without delving into stereotyping, insults, and gross exaggerations of one's commentary

Welp, that's my cue to leave and seek out other opportunities to engage with reasonable adults, then.

Also:

The problem isn't with individuals. The problem is with politics itself -- our institutions of governance, the theoretical underpinnings that we teach every Political Science graduate and law school student regarding the 'way the world works,' the role that war plays in our society, the division of civilization itself into separate 'sovereign nations' that compete against each other, and how foreign policy decisions should be made. The capitalist economic structure, the profits gained from a vibrant defense industry, etc. -- all of these things are bigger than Bush or Blair and we even have to indict ourselves insofar as citizens in western countries in general benefit from an unacceptable division of power and resources.

How long are you going to dance around believing that I'm saying I'm satisfied with drone attacks and the current state of international politics and war as a tool of national security, when I'm been on record saying I despise it but choose to hold civilization in general more accountable than individual actors, given that individual actors on all sides of the political spectrum and from all different nations continue to do the same exact things?

Like, you'd have a great point if Bush and Blair were egregious outliers in America or Britain, but they're not. See: The Obama articles I linked to. You may like Obama more because he seems like a nicer guy and has some nicer social policy beliefs, but he's just as willing to inflict collateral damage, and that says something.

[Sifright]

Originally Posted by Solid Snake

Oh shit, apparently I forgot how Sifright was incapable of engaging in rational, levelheaded conversation without delving into stereotyping, insults, and gross exaggerations of one's commentary

Welp, that's my cue to leave and seek out other opportunities to engage with reasonable adults, then.

This is amusing given the incredible amount of logical fallacies in that postal tidal wave of shit.

Almost of all of your post is with out merit simply because of the fact that you aren't comparing like for like in your defense.

Edit: Just going to find a quote from a terry pratchet book which describes blair perfectly.



Fine you're not okay with drone strikes and murdering civilians, but to claim the people authorizing them aren't culpable because of the political environment is rather disingenuous and the only way to change the environment is to hold them accountable. Otherwise you are tacitly giving your approval to their actions Extra judicial murder is not something we should ever allow to be a legitimate thing if that causes problems for 'national security' tough fucking shit.

double Edit: Obama is terrible I've no illusions about that he's pretty staunchly conservative with all the horrible evil bullshit that brings with it.

[Solid Snake]

Originally Posted by Sifright

Fine you're not okay with drone strikes and murdering civilians, but to claim the people authorizing them aren't culpable because of the political environment is rather disingenuous and the only way to change the environment is to hold them accountable. Otherwise you are tacitly giving your approval to their actions Extra judicial murder is not something we should ever allow to be a legitimate thing if that causes problems for 'national security' tough fucking shit.

The argument I was actually making was: "Politicans who authorize drone strikes or invasions are NOT WORSE than serial rapists / killers."

Note at no point was I making any of the following arguments you're ascribing to me:
* That I believe that politicians shouldn't be punished for committing war crimes. (They should.)
* That I believe Bush and Blair did not commit war crimes. (They did, albeit not the ones you're referencing.)
* That I believe Bush and Blair or anyone else shouldn't face personal accountability for their actions. (They should, but not any more so than a serial killer or a serial rapist.)

Now, if you were to say: "Snake, you're suggesting that Bush and Blair should receive a less daunting penal punishment than a serial rapist or serial killer with all your causation / societal bullshittery talk," well, then you'd probably be right, if only because the alternative would basically involve imprisoning just about every politician who'd ever achieve any degree of success in America or Britain, and if sincerely implemented, the hypotheticals I've advanced that you've derided would ultimately dissuade anyone from ever becoming a politician in the first place.

My larger point early on with Bush and Blair was simply that people like you tend to actually give the system a pass by believing that Bush and Blair are these awful outliers who deserve punishment for doing awful things most politicians wouldn't do, when in fact any politician in their shoes would have done very similar reprehensible things.

Let's face it: Obama is guilty of war crimes, too. So will the next U.S. President. And the President after that. It'll take a seismic change in the way we as a civilization operate -- or a seismic loss of American and British military power -- for that to change. For that change to happen, the first thing we have to acknowledge is that we're all, to some extent, every bit as guilty as Bush and Blair, insofar as our lifestyles and our attitudes and everything we learn and everything we are in America (and Britain too) is a byproduct of our projection of military superiority and a culture that tolerates and in fact celebrates war.

TLDR: Saying "A lot more people were culpable than just Bush and Blair, and nothing will change if you just pretend Bush and Blair aren't byproducts of the system they're in" is not the same thing as saying "Bush and Blair aren't culpable."

[Sifright]

Politicians that authorize invasions of other countries ARE worse than Rapists or serial killers.

A politician that does that literally takes the mantle of serial killer decides to knock it up to hard mode and murder entire populaces. War is not a fucking game . When you invade another country you will be murdering their soldiers destroying their infrastructure with all the side effects that entails stopping shipments of food causing civilians to starve for the hopeful benefit of causing the same to happen to their soldiers. Bombing roads and power plants to destroy their supply lines and logistics.


PEOPLE LIKE ME GIVE THE SYSTEM A PASS? Are you fucking joking? You are the one trying to claim the entire military industrial complex isn't in some way culpable as well for what goes on.

If I had my way I'd throw the entire current socio poltical and economic system out the bloody window as not fit for purpose.

Oh I love the self hating argument that some how the poor are also responsible for the decisions of their rich masters Well fucking done.

Most of society and our way of life wouldn't have to change at all to facilitate this dream world in which we don't blow up arabs for money. (It's called communism and murdering the fuck out of the rich.)

[Solid Snake]

Originally Posted by Sifright

Politicians that authorize invasions of other countries ARE worse than Rapists or serial killers.

And here's where we disagree.
But at least we can just leave it here at "we disagree," because damn I see no point whatsoever in continuing this.

Oh I love the self hating argument that some how the poor are also responsible for the decisions of their rich masters Well fucking done.

Yes, because that's what I'm saying.
Not that, y'know, everyone here in America by virtue of being in America (or Britain) is 'rich' by comparison and has benefited from the operations of the military-industrial complex to protect their precious interests in continued electricity and cheap gasoline and defense jobs and 'national security' and everything else that American citizens unquestionably benefit from.

Also:

You are the one trying to claim the entire military industrial complex isn't in some way culpable as well for what goes on.

Goddamn man. How do you go from accusing me to paying too much attention to societal factors and letting individual actors off the hook, to paying too little attention to the very military-industrial phenomenon that I HAVE BEEN REFERENCING SINCE THIS ARGUMENT BEGAN and that you haven't even mentioned once until now?

[Sifright]

Originally Posted by Solid Snake

And here's where we disagree.
But at least we can just leave it here at "we disagree," because damn I see no point whatsoever in continuing this.



Yes, because that's what I'm saying.
Not that, y'know, everyone here in America by virtue of being in America (or Britain) is 'rich' by comparison and has benefited from the operations of the military-industrial complex to protect their precious interests in continued electricity and cheap gasoline and defense jobs and 'national security' and everything else that American citizens unquestionably benefit from.

Snake this is utterly nonsense. Your knowledge about the fundamental structure that society relies on is entirely false. We have no pressing energy crisis that isn't manufactored to exist by vested interests so that they can price gauge and make stupid amounts of money.

MORE IMPORTANTLY, The Iraq war made oil more COSTLY for the american and british public whilst giving the RICH a chance to make a killing by OWNING the Iraq oil pipelines. FUNNY HOW british and american people didn't benefit from that isn't it?

The rich are Extra national. They don't have the same limitations we do. There are no borders for the mega wealthy. Their capital can buy what it wants and go where they want it. Labour how ever can't this is how the rich make a killing it's and why they always bang on about immigrants.

The divide in wealth between the nations is entirely a product of the rich classes in all countries involved. We wouldn't have to live in poverty for the middle east and Africa to not be in poverty. It's kind of funny in that Nuclear power would serve all our energy needs pretty much for ever right now and would actually be much CHEAPER over it's lifetime.

Energy is artificially high in price and regardless as energy sets the base price utimately for everything it's also kind of irrelevant. There are no constraints of energy as a whole. Oil is only used in the vast quantities it currently is used for due to vested interests and the fact that as a fuel for energy generation on national scale it's energy density for cost is terrible.

Uranium generates vast amounts more power as a fuel even factoring in the huge costs of nuclear plants where all the cost is front loaded it's still cheaper to go nuclear and more environmentally friendly.

What i'm saying is that their pretty clearly is 0 need for any of this bullshit. It's just the easiest way for the mega rich to protect their interests and keep on getting richer.

[Grimpond]

Clintright, that is a chair.

That is not SolidSnake.

Why are you calling that empty chair SolidSnake.

[Sifright]

Originally Posted by Grimpond

Clintright, that is a chair.

That is not SolidSnake.

Why are you calling that empty chair SolidSnake.

Hohohohoho, what a card.

I'm pretty sure Snake, is the one making fatuous comments and blaming entirely the wrong people for societies ills. Oh who am I kidding It is self evident to all middle class fuckers that OBVIOUSLY everything wrong with society starts with the poor and only ends with mega wealthy. After all our governments are totally acting in our name by blowing up middle easterners its our fault that it happens.

Except for the fact that, the government doesn't act in our name at all. The poor have no say in government or policy, even the middle classes influence on politics is at best marginal. To say that every one in society is to blame for the actions of the political class is nonsense which is exactly what snake has claimed.

[POS Industries]

Originally Posted by Sifright

I'm pretty sure Snake, is the one making fatuous comments and blaming entirely the wrong people for societies ills.

No, it's pretty apparent that you're completely misrepresenting everything Snake is saying or just flat out ignoring his posts entirely and claiming he's said things that he hasn't at all.

There's also the whole thing where you appear to be completely unaware of our own first-world privilege and the military-industrial complex's utter dedication to maintaining that, which has led to us continuing to encourage it via taking advantage of its benefits.